Hey guys,

The list below is an attempt to achieve two things. First is to give rules to all new LI models, and make them playable out of the boxes in regards to formation sizes and loadouts.
Second is to narratively integrate LI models into 40k and make it impossible to just spam heresy-era stuff. I'm still not 100% sure on the relic allowance and would be glad to hear feedback on that front.

Current version of the list in attachment and here is the link to online version:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y9smAS49-s1ZqL3qxmLMMvaD4xCwQ851/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=101033330792132578865&rtpof=true&sd=true

feels a bit bloated as it stands. pretty much is just a functional overlap with GlynG's attempts of a generic tournament HH legion list. If you're trying to show off a "modern" force with relics list, they should actually feel a bit more rare.

also having 10 types of SHT, 4 types of drednoughts, 5 types of support platforms, 2 types of terminators, and heavy tanks with all the fixings, you're way in the weeds and overly kitchen sinking it here I feel.

For example, Terminators are just terminators man. Saturine ones are at best just a different load out at epic scale really (or just use the existing Termitubbies units from the IF as stand ins for them).

Pair down the battle tanks to just the main classic loadout for use. The model doesn't matter here (counts-as is a thing for play. Leave some room for variants to exist.

Do you need that many types of bike/jetbikes? Can we just abstract some of this to be a rose by any other name and the modeling is for aesthetics not gameplay? As it stands, this doesn't seem fun to face off against.

What's the list's drawbacks and shortcomings here? What a list can't do is usually more important than what it can do thematically. What's the theme? Because at this point it's just, "everything in LImp, but EA". If that's the case then you don't realy want a themed "relic" list. Just make a HH kitchen sink list and call it good! I can see how a "here's everything HH but for EA to go pew pew with" would be awesome.

Lets rap!

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Thank you for feedback, much appreciate it.

The main difference from GlynG's list is loadouts (I'm quite anal about that thing, to my own detriment) and trying to fit this into 40k narrative. But essentially yes - it is just a list of "Take your LI army and play it" and the theme is first and foremost providing a way to play LI boxes with some narrative constraints to fit into 40k. I understand that trying to fit all of LI range into one list will unavoidably make it bloated. But and I'm trying to not make it into a sink list using relic system and would really much appreciate feedback on how to improve it.

I was thinking on other ways to make relic more rare:
-Make it 1 to 3 instead of 1 to 2 (makes you spam more cheap regular formations for more relics)
-Make it % of the list, like allies and aviation (makes relics more static)
-Give one relic point per X total pts. And make relic formation cost both regular pts and relic points (feels like the strictest one)
Right now the first and third options seems worth looking over to me.

I feel like the base formations is similar enough in options to regular lists to not be bloated, and also have some variations (tacticals without rockets relying on upgrades for shooting, termies without ranged guns, land raiders of a different config). The bloat comes from relic part which I'm okay with, because - yes, you are spoiled for choice, but you can only take so much relics (again, the relic system is up for revisiting and making stricter)

On the part of squishing models into one datasheet - hard disagree. I feel like there is a meaningful enough difference between all units (maybe not bikes, I made them separate because everything else was). Terminators for example are just different calibers, saturnines have different role and even unit sizes from indomitus/tartaros/cataphractii. We have new detailed models and it would be a shame to relegate them to proxy and "count as" straight away. After all, IG have the same tank with different turrets and it has its own profile for each. I did have thoughts to make veterans and jetbikes upgrade only and not a formation. And also moving Fellblade to relics to lighten the regular formations.
I admit, this is a personal brain fart of mine to make the models match the loadouts) And I spent way too much time in the last 15 years converting little dude's guns) But this is the hill I'm willing to die on)

On the side of drawback to the list, I would really appreciate some advice. Fell like base formations have same issues as standard marines list and relics can fill the missing roles. Cutting down on relics availability seems like the most sensible option here.

>-Make it % of the list, like allies and aviation (makes relics more static)
THAT is a good way to do it. Put all the old relic stuff into there and then start testing.

If you want this many toys you probably shouldn't consider this a NetEa list vs a Kitchen Sink and call it good. I get every model is a special boy but at the battalion level for a balanced list, most things either need to start smoothing out ort removing options. Can't be worried about hair cuts at this level after all or instead go for the full on pretzels and beer and don't worry about weakness (said as the guy that released the Marine Kitchen Sink List when I was Marine AC - they HAVE a place in the fandom).


But not in the same list while having all the rest of the toys. You want all the tanks you're taking a Tank Legion list and losing on all the infantry death stars and other flexibility for example and by playing a tough RA based force but one that is out-activated give it a weakness. Hopefully that gives another perspective.


Ok lets get into this then. How would you characterize a Saturnine against a Termie (armour subtypes don't really come into play at this level) role on the battlefield? Remember, they can come out shooting missiles and other weird weapons as well (and have some of that in other lists to boot). How would they differ then from the 40k era Centurions on the tactical front?

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He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Don't know about straight 1/3 of points, seems too banal for my taste. Also it will overlap with the titans and aviation part. I would much rather go with "X amount of relic formations are allowed per Y pts". If we go with one relic per 1000pts it will be close to 1/3 pointwise, but at the same time cap your relic activations and force to rely on regular formations much more.

I don't claim this list to be as smooth as tournament ones or that it should ever be tournament approved. But I would like to make it as close to NetEA tournament lists balance as possible without sacrificing ability to field all marines from LI range.

Valid point about IG. I think the equivalent to this in context of LI marines would be to make several lists like "Tank company", "Fast attack company" and "Saturnine assault". But with this list I want "Regular marines list that can throw in some weird old stuff", with relic system doing the work of list separation that faction lists normally do.

Now about saturnines. If we disregard weapon options completely, they are a direct upgrade of regular terminators going into walking tank branch. Less movement, less options of transport means they will stay were you first dropped them. In this particular list regular terminators don't have ranged weapons at all and can be used only as CC drop with saturnines filling the role of shooting while holding point.
Yes, they are similar to centurions in role with current profile of centurions. But I personally don't like how centurions are just another terminators in NetEA. In bighammer they are noticeably slower and have no invuln. SV3+ with no RA and 10cm move would suit them more in my opinion. Luckily this list doesn't have centurions)

you're going to need to give somewhere because you have a list without downsides and every option possible. i can absolutely tell you that this wouldn't be fun to face unless I was using the same list. Basically it's LImp but trying to use the superior EA rules. If that's what your goal is, then again, kitchen sink it and rock on. But if you're trying for something balanced, it really needs pruning.

So for example, I'd do something say focused on a hard hitting saturine termie + SHT transport with armoured support as a focus. Leave the fast scout skimmers for another variant. It's thematic, interesting, distinct, and going to give a core play style that can be focused on and able to be countered with clever gameplay.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Then I think this one will stay the same (with reworked relic system) as sorta sink list.
And for more balanced variant I will divide it into three:
1) Tank list (Kratos, Sicaran, superheavys)
2) Fast attack (bikes, speeders, sabre tanks)
3) Heavy assault (Dreadnoughts, Saturnines, Mastadons)

Do you think the base formations need to be cut down for these lists? Like remove bikes and speeders from 1 and 3, remove vindicators and predators from 2. Or adjusting available relic formations would be enough? I see that in other marines lists core formations are almost always the same as Codex Astartes.

oh that sounds fun!
Yeah I'd remove the speeders from 1 and 3 and the armour from 2.
less worry about a Kitchen Sink so we're golden i think.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!