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Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)

 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:00 am 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
Looks good, P. I agree about the plasma weapons. Given their restrictions, I hardly ever use them. I like the idea of removing the restrictions and upping the cost. I like your changes to the close combat weapons. Any changes to the power saw?

Any chance you'll do an optional non-25 point increment cost list?


Hi!

Is there much of a difference between the saw and the chain fist? The seem to function the same way.

I'll give some thought to come up with something distinct for this.

By non 25 point increment you mean traditional to within 50 points? (50, 100, 150, 200, etc).

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:16 am 
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primarch wrote:
By non 25 point increment you mean traditional to within 50 points? (50, 100, 150, 200, etc).

I mean like 15, 30, 45, 70 or whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:18 am 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
By non 25 point increment you mean traditional to within 50 points? (50, 100, 150, 200, etc).

I mean like 15, 30, 45, 70 or whatever.


Hi!

Other than the current net epic gold points value (which are like that already)?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:19 am 
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primarch wrote:
Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
By non 25 point increment you mean traditional to within 50 points? (50, 100, 150, 200, etc).

I mean like 15, 30, 45, 70 or whatever.


Hi!

Other than the current net epic gold points value (which are like that already)?

Primarch

Oh right, never mind then, nothing to see here, move along. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:20 am 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
By non 25 point increment you mean traditional to within 50 points? (50, 100, 150, 200, etc).

I mean like 15, 30, 45, 70 or whatever.


Hi!

Other than the current net epic gold points value (which are like that already)?

Primarch

Oh right, never mind then, nothing to see here, move along. :D


Hi!

I got some "old man pills" my wife gives me for that. I can send you some.... ;) ;D

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:24 am 
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primarch wrote:
Is there much of a difference between the saw and the chain fist? The seem to function the same way.

I'll give some thought to come up with something distinct for this.

Although they function the same, they are different weapons and I'd like for them to have different stats. SM2 does have separate stats for them, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:33 am 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
Is there much of a difference between the saw and the chain fist? The seem to function the same way.

I'll give some thought to come up with something distinct for this.

Although they function the same, they are different weapons and I'd like for them to have different stats. SM2 does have separate stats for them, after all.


Hi!

Fair enough.

I think I will make this excel at "severing" bits and pieces off the enemy.

Power saw
Adds +2 to CAF. A titan armed with a power saw that wins close combat selects location and roll on damage table with a +4 modifier to the roll. It may also destroys building with a -4TSM modifier.

Basically, the chain fist makes it easier to win close combat and does high damage.

The saw is less likely to win, but devastating when it lands a hit.

The fist is reliable (re-roll) and potentially lethal (grab attack).

Laser burner is the ultimate titan defense. Can you survive its blast to close and take it out?

I think they all cover something distinct with different reasons to use.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:17 am 
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Yeah, I like the stats.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:53 am 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
Yeah, I like the stats.


Hi!

I'm glad you approve. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:55 pm 
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Agree with most of the weapon costs, with the improved barrage rules, the Quake Cannon is definitely a 100pt weapon, it makes it a viable alternative for anti titan work as opposed to the Volcano Cannon.

Devotional bell was always a banner mount so no need to include that in with the Fire Control and Landing Pad.
I have some small concerns about moving the Fire Control and Pad to the banner mounts as I believe only the old beetle back actually has the room to mount them there. If I remember, the MK 2 and 3 Warlords don't have the banner mounting holes. Obviously that just means the player will have to do some conversion work.
But what about critical hits, putting them on the banner mounts means they can't be hit and they aren't exactly small!
I am not saying it is a bad idea as I would love to fit my warlords with 4 weapons and a fire control >:D , but maybe some more thought. If you do want to go down that route, then you may want to adjust the carapace critical table to make reference to any carapace mounted items, or even introduce another critical table to cover the banner mounting points, I don't know, just thinking out load.

Definitely like the idea of free heads, though I wouldn't make the Custodian Head free, it is way better than the Weapon Head, I would still give that one a cost of 25pts. I would also be tempted to drop the cost of the Deathstrike Head to 50pts since we have basically cut 25pts of the cost of most heads (50 for the Corvus) and it has additional negatives on top of the save reduction.

Free CC weapons is another good thing since you are giving up a valuable gun hardpoint and you don't even know if you will get to use the CC weapon, plus it gives people an incentive to try CC builds.
I am not sure if they all need to be different, I am quite happy with the Power Fist / Claw and Chain Fist / Saw doing the same things, I just think it is an aesthetics thing for which you use. I don't remember them having different rules in SM2, will have to check my copy of Titan Legions when I get home.
Like the idea of re-rolling the dice with the Power Fist/Claw, should make it more playable (I assume this will also be applied to other power fists like the Eldar?)
And the small CAF boost might make people think about taking the Ram.
Interesting rules for the Burner, again don't remember those rules, but then AT was a long time ago.

Definitely get rid of the plasma weapon restrictions, or water it down. Maybe a restriction on moving if you wish to fire the Destructor (but can turn) and half move for the Cannon? Still keeps some of the theme of plasma management, but doesn't prevent you from taking them like the current rules do.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:55 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Agree with most of the weapon costs, with the improved barrage rules, the Quake Cannon is definitely a 100pt weapon, it makes it a viable alternative for anti titan work as opposed to the Volcano Cannon.

Devotional bell was always a banner mount so no need to include that in with the Fire Control and Landing Pad.
I have some small concerns about moving the Fire Control and Pad to the banner mounts as I believe only the old beetle back actually has the room to mount them there. If I remember, the MK 2 and 3 Warlords don't have the banner mounting holes. Obviously that just means the player will have to do some conversion work.
But what about critical hits, putting them on the banner mounts means they can't be hit and they aren't exactly small!
I am not saying it is a bad idea as I would love to fit my warlords with 4 weapons and a fire control >:D , but maybe some more thought. If you do want to go down that route, then you may want to adjust the carapace critical table to make reference to any carapace mounted items, or even introduce another critical table to cover the banner mounting points, I don't know, just thinking out load.

Definitely like the idea of free heads, though I wouldn't make the Custodian Head free, it is way better than the Weapon Head, I would still give that one a cost of 25pts. I would also be tempted to drop the cost of the Deathstrike Head to 50pts since we have basically cut 25pts of the cost of most heads (50 for the Corvus) and it has additional negatives on top of the save reduction.

Free CC weapons is another good thing since you are giving up a valuable gun hardpoint and you don't even know if you will get to use the CC weapon, plus it gives people an incentive to try CC builds.
I am not sure if they all need to be different, I am quite happy with the Power Fist / Claw and Chain Fist / Saw doing the same things, I just think it is an aesthetics thing for which you use. I don't remember them having different rules in SM2, will have to check my copy of Titan Legions when I get home.
Like the idea of re-rolling the dice with the Power Fist/Claw, should make it more playable (I assume this will also be applied to other power fists like the Eldar?)
And the small CAF boost might make people think about taking the Ram.
Interesting rules for the Burner, again don't remember those rules, but then AT was a long time ago.

Definitely get rid of the plasma weapon restrictions, or water it down. Maybe a restriction on moving if you wish to fire the Destructor (but can turn) and half move for the Cannon? Still keeps some of the theme of plasma management, but doesn't prevent you from taking them like the current rules do.

Matt


Hi!

I think adjusting the Carce damage tables to reflect potential damage of things mounting there. This is the easiest solution.

I agree with the heads, cross the board reductions and increase for the custodian. :)

As for the power saw, there are no rules for it. Never were as far as I can tell when I looked up AT. I think it was treated like the chainfist.

As DS says, if there is a model for it, it should have stats. I agree with that. :)

The burner under AT rules was a guaranteed critical hit. But just one. All the others did more, but at the risk of "all or nothing". The burner always struck, but once. I could definitely see using this as a defensive measure for a titan with lots of firepower.

I'll leave the plasma weapons with no restrictions under standard net epic, just increase the cost. If people want more than that they can use the alternate plasma rules. ;)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:24 am 
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Lots to comment on here.

I disagree that the Fire Control Center and the Landing Pad should be moved to Carapace Mounts. I've always seen having them take a weapon slot as part of the balance of having the extra bonus / ability. If they are moved to a banner mount, their cost should at least double, if not triple, as you now have another weapon you would not have had before. (I have a built and painted Warlord with a FCC and a Deathstrike. It works well. I might have used a Landing Pad, but I never got one, so I couldn't.)

Similarly, I'd be against removing the restrictions on Plasma weapons. Having the restrictions means you have to think a bit before, and while, using them on a Titan / in a game. (I have Titans built and painted with Plasma weaponry on them.) If the restrictions were removed, IMHO, the costs would have to be tripled or quadrupled to be anywhere near balanced.

The list of weapons for the Warhound is incomplete. At the least, it should also include the Chainfist. (Again, I have Warhounds built that came with Chainfists in their blister. Yes, metal Chainfists.) I seem to recall this being discussed somewhere, but it wasn't in this thread, and I don't recall where. Probably in the Alternate Titan Rules thread.

Free Head variants. Interesting idea. I agree that the Corvus (and as pointed out elsewhere, the Custodian) should still have costs though. Similarly, the Bloodletter Battlehead should still have a cost, though likely reduced by 25, as per Corvus & Custodian.

Free CC weapons. Also potentially interesting. How about the Chaos CC weapons? I can see the Tail being free, but I'm not sure about the others. I guess the Whip really is about the same power level as the Wrecker. Not sure about the Hellblade though, as I've never used one in game, or the Doomfist. The Khorne Tail should probably go down to 25. (I'll try to remember to also post these notes, and about the Bloodletter head, in the Chaos thread.)

I'm not sure whether the cost of the Deathstrike should be reduced or not. It doesn't so much as modify the Head as flat replace it with a weapon. Essentially the Titan no longer has a Head at all! (Well, this was the case in SM2, there is no mention of this specifically in the NetEpic PDF. Was this an intentional change or an oversight?) This being a big advantage, the cost should remain the same.

Just my views.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:50 am 
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Hi!

Quote:
Lots to comment on here.

I disagree that the Fire Control Center and the Landing Pad should be moved to Carapace Mounts. I've always seen having them take a weapon slot as part of the balance of having the extra bonus / ability. If they are moved to a banner mount, their cost should at least double, if not triple, as you now have another weapon you would not have had before. (I have a built and painted Warlord with a FCC and a Deathstrike. It works well. I might have used a Landing Pad, but I never got one, so I couldn't.)

Similarly, I'd be against removing the restrictions on Plasma weapons. Having the restrictions means you have to think a bit before, and while, using them on a Titan / in a game. (I have Titans built and painted with Plasma weaponry on them.) If the restrictions were removed, IMHO, the costs would have to be tripled or quadrupled to be anywhere near balanced.


Problem is that if you leave them as they are as not many use them. A fire control nor landing pad is better than a weapon regardless of what they do. If you leave them as is, that is sacrificing a weapon, they will have to be free. They are not worth the shortcomings as is.

After 20 years since space marine second edition was released I have only seem them used once. That was when the rules were new and they were never used again. They are a HUGE letdown from their AT equivalents. Again the tradeoff is so onerous it is generally viewed as not worth it.

Also note that the original rules had NO WEAPON COST. Since they were all free they introduced the restriction as a "balance". Once we re-introduced cost, that restriction should have been lifted. In no longer serves its purpose.

I don't have much of a dog in this hunt anymore since I have migrated to net epic evolution (Bissler's alternate rules) where plasma weapons (and everything else) is useful.

But to those whom play standard net epic this is such a common complaint that I am not sure (and somewhat ashamed) it hasn't been address before.

Quote:
The list of weapons for the Warhound is incomplete. At the least, it should also include the Chainfist. (Again, I have Warhounds built that came with Chainfists in their blister. Yes, metal Chainfists.) I seem to recall this being discussed somewhere, but it wasn't in this thread, and I don't recall where. Probably in the Alternate Titan Rules thread.


I believe the consensus on that conversation was three tiers of weapon selection:

1. Old school (limited weapon choice as I mentioned earlier in the thread).
2. Net epic gold standard (as they appear in the book)
3. Freeform (whatever people want)

individual groups and people decide how much leeway they will grant weapon selection. :)

Quote:
Free Head variants. Interesting idea. I agree that the Corvus (and as pointed out elsewhere, the Custodian) should still have costs though. Similarly, the Bloodletter Battlehead should still have a cost, though likely reduced by 25, as per Corvus & Custodian.

Free CC weapons. Also potentially interesting. How about the Chaos CC weapons? I can see the Tail being free, but I'm not sure about the others. I guess the Whip really is about the same power level as the Wrecker. Not sure about the Hellblade though, as I've never used one in game, or the Doomfist. The Khorne Tail should probably go down to 25. (I'll try to remember to also post these notes, and about the Bloodletter head, in the Chaos thread.)

I'm not sure whether the cost of the Deathstrike should be reduced or not. It doesn't so much as modify the Head as flat replace it with a weapon. Essentially the Titan no longer has a Head at all! (Well, this was the case in SM2, there is no mention of this specifically in the NetEpic PDF. Was this an intentional change or an oversight?) This being a big advantage, the cost should remain the same.


Lots of fine tuning to do. My comments were mainly directed to the imperial titan CC weapons and heads.

The chaos ones never had much of a problem. ;)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:40 am 
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I'm also concerned about moving FCC and Landing pad to banner mount.

In my group, FCC has become very popular in the last games. Warlord are quite expensive and FCC make them reliable.

Few exemples of warlord titans we see there:
Volcano day: 3 volcano cannon + 1 FCC 900 points
Snapping machine: 3 TLD + 1 FCC 800 points
Cheap and powerful: 1 Plasma cannon + 1 FCC + 1 power fist + 1 laser burner: 700 points
Scream config: 2 quake cannon + 1 volcano + 1 FCC: 850 points

FCC allows titan to hit on 2+ on many weapons in exchange of a weapon slot, this seems correct for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: TItan Legions (Mechanicus)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:48 pm 
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Hi!

Oh well, I guess it will all stay the same as under net epic gold standard rules. :)

I'm thinking at some point people may just "house rule" any small tweaks they wish to add to the main game.

There are too many unintended consequences that are not palatable for all players to make a sweeping change.

Primarch

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