For mobile chaos mech to work you need some kind of ground flak which can keep up (Chaos Air units don't cut it). It doesn't need to be accurate or long ranged. Just being able to put a BM on anything making a bombing run would be enough.

As for the arguement about no AA unit being in the fluff - Until recently there have been no flyers in 40k, so GW have had no need to make a AA unit. Obviously any technologicly capable army in the 41st melenium has access to some kind of AA weapon. The Hunter was 'invented' for this exact reason with no previous mention of it any books. If Orks can strap some machine guns to a flak-truck, I think a dark mechanicus can mount an AA weapon on a rhino.

I know this is a little off topic people have talking about using Chaos Air units at act as AA.

I have found that Chaos air power is overpriced as AA:

For 200 points you get 6x5+ shots, sounds great.
But this at 15cm range on a flyer with a 6+ save.
If you try to attack anything important (Thunderhawk, Landa, Fighter Bombers etc) you have to take defensive AA before you can attack. You usually lose one before you get to shoot and then need a 4+ to active next turn. All that assumes that you have been able to avoid any ground flak.

Aircraft have been a contentious issue. Obliterators were supposed to fit the roll of mobile AA but they were priced too high to be used in that fashion.

I'd much rather see Obliterators patched so they once again provided an AA option for CSM armies at a price that made it feasible to put them into Retinues.

Oblits are fine, but mech doesn't work because oblits can't keep up with mech formations. No price or stat changes will affect that.

Simple Solution: let Oblits ride in Rhinos or Land Raiders.
Complex Solution: put in an AA Rhino (pre-heresy Hunter).

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That is one opinion. Another is that they are still far too expensive to use in Retinues. Three Obliterators almost doubles the cost of a Retinue. Why would anyone take them at that price for an AA6+ shot?

They were overpriced before and they are even more expensive now IIRC. At the current cost I can take some Obliterators or I can invest in trying to summon a Greater Daemon.

The mechanised force issue isn't really the deal-breaker you make it to be as the list is meant to build a wide range of options. If you want an all mechanised CSM force then you pay for that in limited options in any case as you need to buy and pay for Rhinos. If the list was meant to be a mechanised force then it would be a more relevant issue but that simply isn't the case for the CSM list.

Obliterators are the best option for building an AA defense in the list but at the current price no-one would use them.

The original issue regarding them was never their use in Retinues in any case and the solution (lowering their AA shot and increasing their price) fixed the problem of their being used in Terminator formations but made the problem re: Retinues even worse.

There was a suggestion some time ago to simply remove them as an option for Terminators and reduce their price so that they were a realistic option for Retinues (thereby removing the need for an AA vehicle) but that doesn't appear to have been explored.

Each Oblit will lay one hit on an aircraft target 50% of the time statistically. That's the same as a 75pt Hunter, except they trade a bit of range for a whole host of other benefits. Not least of which is that their infantry status and armour makes them a damn sight harder to get rid of than Hunters.

Really, at 75pts they're fine. They were quite overpowered when they had 5's to hit (statistically 1 AA hit per Oblit).

Denying them to Terminator formations and making them cheaper wont do a thing to fix the main issue: that mech retinues have no AA.

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I don't really have that much of a problem with them being AA6+.



I think this is far more of an issue in Terminator formations. I don't think they are as resilient in CSM Retinues. I certainly was loath to take them at 75pts and IIRC there was a fair bit of consensus amongst people that they weren't being used in Retinues due to the cost. I suspect that this is still the case.

I wonder if we can just scale the cost. Increase the per model cost of the upgrade as you add more of them.



That would be more of an issue if the list was meant to be a mechanized list. It isn't. I don't see why we should prioritize one type of army build when determining the efficacy of the list and its units in general.

And denying them to Terminator forces pretty much removes the option of having nigh-invulnerable Obliterators.

That said, I've got nothing against having them as a transport option in LRs.

I don't know that this is really a serious problem. Unless you're going with majority mech infantry, it's easy enough to garrison some Oblits forward or teleport some in. That's really only one style of build and it is not exactly crippled in the air game as it would still have the aircraft AA option.


Why not? 2 Oblits compare to 4 Havocs in price. 6 better shots + AA versus 8 shots is better firepower. Roughly equal durability (though less resistance to BMs). Oblits are worse in assaults. For a garrison formation, that looks comparable to me.


If the combination of aircraft and Oblits is not sufficient volume or flexibility of AA, my personal preference would be to look at Defiler AA variants like the cult lists have done.

Garrisoned retinue with oblits works very well (I have done this dozens of times) except that makes all lists look and act very similarly. Your mobile formations are stuck to staying in a 45cm bubble around a mostly static unit until it is time to attack. This static unit is also usually your BTS due to the cost of oblits, so it likes to stay in some cover, which makes things harder.

Mech retinues can't take thunderbolt or fighter bomber attacks. Losing 1 or 2 rhinos on turn 1 makes them far less effective. SO you are forced into a very predictable play style while using them.

How about putting the 'stalker' (pre-heresy hunter that seems to have been banded about on occasion) as an upgrade for Armoured Companies only - (maybe you can replace 0-2 predators with Stalkers or something) encourages people to take the Armoured Company, thus avoiding the 'infantry horde' I was frequently accused (rightly) of always taking in my BL army.

As an upgrade their cost starts to limit the number of activations that an army can have.



I am totally in favour of this. Fits the fluff and doesn't require us to make up units

AA Defilers fit the same role and fit the army background

See I don't know that they do.

Defilers occupy the mid-ground between the Infantry and armour in terms of speed. so they either have to hang around Retinues or the armour has to wait for them.

Also there's nothing (that I know of, I'm prepared to stand corrected) in the background supporting an AA Defiler either.

AA defilers, once again, will do nothing to help mech formations.

Garrisoned retinues with Oblits are fine.
Terminators teleporting with Oblits are fine.

IF there is an issue, it's with mech and armour formations.
Defiler formations tend to be fine because they can skulk in terrain, something mech/armour cannot do. So again, adding an AA defiler doesn't really fill a very critical niche.

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First question: why are aircraft not a viable AA source for the list?

Second question: if the Black Legion list can't produce a wholly mechanized list without sacrificing air cover to an unpleasant extent, why is that a bad thing? The Steel Legion and Space Marine lists certainly have their preferred styles.

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Fragility mostly.



I think it probably can if you build an air corridor using a garrisoned unit or two and some Obliterators. I suspect that the issue is that you can't build one in the same way as the Guard or Marines which, I agree, is a good thing in that it provides an army with a distinct feel and distinct tactical problems.