Interesting. The thing is that this fluff is not reflected in the epic stats for the Vindicator vis-a-vis the Hellhound: the HH and vindi both have four armor, the vindi has marginally better AT and range, they both are Ignore Cover, and the Vindicator is much slower than the rest of the SM armor.

(Now, granted, when I fire the Vindicator, I feel compelled to say 'BOOM' and the Hellhound it's "PSFHHSE!" but I'm never sure the game effect -- aside from convincing my opponents that I'm a raving lunatic.)

In short, the Vindicator's stats look more attractive as an upgrade for IG, while the Hellhound's stats fit better for the Smurfs. To the extent that stats matter, this may be one reason why the Vindicator's competitive usage appears fairly price-inelastic.

Indeed! They've greedily kept it to themselves for the last 10,000 years without sharing it with any other chapters (bar their successors). It's much more than just different guns too - the more advanced Predator STC also includes a better engines; Blood Angels Rhinos/Baal Predators move 50% faster than standard ones and are much more manoeuvrable, for no downsides (now they've fixed the earlier teething problems).

The Adeptus Mechanicus have taken to following the Blood Angels around and sitting on the side-lines of their battles, hoping for an opportunity to run away with one of their vehicles should one be wrecked and they get the chance. The Ad-Mech have threatened and demanded the schematics over the 10,000 years, but so far relations have remained peaceful, though it suggests this may not always remain so. (for one thing the Blood Angels are a dying chapter, not likely to last much longer).

Sorry for the OT!

It does not change it's role within a list and therefore has less impact. Realistically you are not putting much more with it other than a hunter or more Vindicators (as no Marine player would really add to this formation purely for activation reasons) so it does not need another role which other vehicles can do for the Marines.

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As the one really underused unit / formation, this should be examined.

On the whole, I would try increasing the speed first, and only looking to cost decreases if that is patently not working.
Increasing the speed to a normal Rhino make it a reasonable upgrade to the various formations as it no longer slows them down. So there is now simply a trade-off of range Vs armour. That said, I do not think it is as good as a Predator, and currently it seems that the pricing is reversed - you are paying more for a worse unit.

So, once the testing is done, I have a feeling that we might end up increasing the speed and reducing the cost to 225.

Please note that I think doing this will make the Vindi a much nore attractive upgrade to Tacticals, and this is one of the reasons why I would prefer to avoid dropping the tacs costs.

Formations of 6 Vindicators (and 6 Predators) are already available to Marine players.
If someone wants to use that formation, they should use the NetEA approved, Scions of Iron list.
I really hope that the Scions of Iron list is not going to be made irrelevant by any changes to the core list.

I have no problem with the Vindicator receiving a speed increase. A small price reduction might also be useful (25pts at most) but not vital.

These are my opinions. No one is forcing me to write this (sorry FrogBear, couldn't help myself ).

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Concerning the IA Space marine vehicle performance stats; for tracked armoured vehicles, top speed is one of the least useful data points and should be one of the last things used to determine a units Epic speed characteristic. Top speed is as much dependant on the ruggedness of the tracks, gearing and suspension. And many tracked vehiucles could reach their top speed easily with excess engine power to spare. Characteristics like the (all interlinked) power to weight ratio, torque and acceleration would be a much better indicator of what the speed stat should be, and all those should take a back seat to gameplay considerations.


The Vindicator much, more than the predator, is designed to work closely with marine infantry, but is slower than all other Rhino-derived chassis for no real reason. Both the Vindicator and the Predator are basically the same idea; an up armoured and up gunned Rhino with the transport capacity removed and I don't really see why one should be substantially heavier than the other. The Demolisher cannon might be a heavy piece of equipment, but the Predator has 4+ heavy weapons and added armoured turret.

Either way, it's speed of 25 makes it unattractive to take when all the infantry are moving at 30 in their rhinos and razorbacks.

Well I don't think I'll be stepping on the Scions list design.

Frogbear does make a good point however about what it actually changes in the formation.

In terms of the unit upgrade however, I can see it would make it more likeable a choice to add to other formations with rhinos and also Assault Marines, more importantly.

So noe one likes Sniper?

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...I like sniper. A couple other people commented favorably on it as well.

I'm not keen on the Vindicator magically getting sniper when all other demolisher cannon units don't have it. I don't like the inconsistency or see that the better skilled crew and chassis justify that ability when a Land Raider with godhammer lascannons and superior targeting just has the same stats as guard lascanons. Either a speed boost or points drop would be preferably for me.

Don't see a need for sniper, they jalust need to be cheaper IMO then they're a lovely firefight support unit.

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For me, I think the speed increase makes it more appealing to player, particularly adding it to Tacs to bolster firepower. I think the points reduction will also have to come into play if you reduce the cost of Predators as is being discussed.

Cheers
Aaron

I used Vindicators at an event recently and they perfomed well (they were 250 points with 25cm speed, no walker), I replaced my Dev formation with them.

With Epic-UK now adding walker I will certainly use them at more tournaments in the future.

I found that their firepower was more effective in the games than the Devs, the speed difference (especially in the first turn) would have been cancelled by the walker ability and they kept their 25cm speed all the time where as Devs rarely have 30cm speed after the first turn.
The difference in FF with Devs, for me, was cancelled by the extra movement they had later in games (as Devs usually lose their transports early). This allowed them to have a greater range of effectiveness of who they could support and I could have them threaten a bigger area (this making it less obvious to opponents where assaults could happen).

They are/were great at clearing scout screens in the first turn (walker would have been a great boost here as it would have been easier and safer to get them where I wanted) and with practice (placement of objectives depending on possible opponents garrisons, using terrain to mask movement etc) I can see these becoming more popular when seen used well.

I think they are fine at 250 with 25cm speed and walker, I'd prefer them to be cheaper but I'd prefer everything to be cheaper