Well I am the only one trying to help out it seems, as silence does not mean it is perfect - it usually means people cannot be bothered.

At present they are a light grey Khorne force IMO. They should be so much more.

Happy to help out if you want the help

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Honestly, I don't find they seem very Space Wolvey. They're Space Marines, only better.

Which is pretty Space Wolvey, actually...

A couple of questions:

Fenrisian Wolves are as tough as Scouts and as good in close combat as Tactical MArines? Really?

A bonus to Doubling for the Unblooded still feels wrong. It facilitates movement far more than it does battle, and does not involve close combat. It doesn't fit. Blood Claws want to get into close combat - that's engaging. They don't want to shoot people at long range - which is doubling.

It does not fit.

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Well that's certainly true for all lists it would seem. Otherwise we'd see a lot more batreps and feedback. My view is that people do play them but they don't want the hassle of writing them themselves so they're happy to just use whatever comes around.


Because they get a +1 to Double??? But again, this is just your opinion.


I'm not sure exactly how to take this


Make them any less and they'll be 100-125 points. I can hear the doubters now.... Think of them as fast, extremely viscious and able to kill an unarmoured initiate Space Wolf....

If this were true why would Claws in all codeces be able to use ranged weaponry...? It's an abstraction. Doubling isn't just about long range shooting, it's a manouevre tactic.


It does not fit "in your opinion" should be the quote and, again, you're missing what I said earlier about it being about fighting not close combat. You see it one way, I see it another. As both our interpretations don't match, let's agree to disagree and move on, shall we?

Incorrect.

Several people see it one way, you (alone) see it another. There is a big difference.

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Add more of them to the formation. Alternately, make them an upgrade to other formations instead of an independent formation.



How about...no?

If they're all about fighting, why don't they get a bonus to Sustained Fire, too? That's fighting.

You see, a Double isn't fighting. It's maneuvering, with a bit of light long-range fire. Anything that could be really classified as fighting (to the extent that would interest a hot-blooded young Space Wolf) takes place in an engagement. At 15cm range or less.

In fact, since none of the units with Unblooded can shoot, a double doesn't involve combat. It involves MOVING. And the idea that Space Wolves are easier to coordinate if you suggest to them that if they just move this way they'll eventually get to fight somone is silly.

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Thanks gents I'll consider it further.

OK gents, I've looked at the Blood Angels and Raven Guard lists as they both have similar formations to the SW list and what I'll do is remove the +1 to Doubling but add it to Rallying for the Blood/Sky/Swiftclaws. Reasoning is:

Blood claws will be eager to get back to fight.

Keeping the cost the same because:

Blood Angels Assault are 6 units for 250 vs 225 for 6 Skyclaws (both +75 each for a +2 upgrade)
Raven Guard Assault are 6 for 225 vs 200 for 6 Blood Claws.

As both BA nd RG formations get 1+ initiative across all actions and have a better FF value than both the SkyClaws and Blood Claws, I will keep the cost the same. 25 point increments assumed to be preferred. I also note that the Apocrypha of Skaros list has Assault upgrades at 50 points for +2.

I also note that both the Raven Guard and Blood Angels Thunderhawks cost 200 and landing Craft 350, when the SW pay 225 and 375 respectively. With an identical 8 Skyclaw (300) vs 8 BA Assault formation(325) load, the SW TH is over costed in comparison as the BA load has the same amount of better troops.

However, in comparison to the Raven Guard TH ...

RG TH + 6 RG Assault= 425 points vs SW TH + 6 BC = 425.

So in addition to removing the +1 to Doubling I will return SW Thunderhawks and Landing Craft back to codex pricing.

In all honesty, this just appears to be a fan-boy excuse. There is no in-game justification for it.

I had Ecstacy for the Emperor's Children which allowed them to ignore enemy within 30cm to Rally. I was asked to play the list without this and see how I went rather than introduce it from the start. My reason was to keep them competitive and I could show the appropriate fluff for it too.

Even so, I decided to trial it without the rule in respect of those that could advise from a position that was not as close to the project as I.

I really think you should try the same. +1 to assaults is good enough.

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Furthermore:

By reducing the cost of the air transports, your Grey Hunters are some of the best 'bang for buck' air assault 'Tactical' Marine units in the game. For 300 points they also have a Character and increased CC.

These may be priced appropriately for foot-sloggers, yet for air assaults, they are under priced as all their negatives (no shooting) account for nought.

Effectively, you may envision the force as this awesome army that moves across a table, yet instead all you will see is a turn 2/3 assault made up of Thunderhawks and Landing craft.

This effectively gets past the Unbloodded 2+ initiative rule as well.

Not sure if you have taken this into account.

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And the GHs also have trouble basing up all enemies with a 5cm deployment....

Also I don't think the claws are worth as much without the double or the rally. Highly unreliable once they take BMs so would you prefer a cheaper cost instead? You can't say they should be the same price with just a +1 engage.

Why not try Bloodlust/Frenzy/whatever before launching off in an entirely new direction?

Dobbsy - how do you air assault? I do it taking advantage of the fact the transport is a war engine. In other words I actually land on the enemy. You land int eh middle of the formation barge a few and deploy out. Its very effective.

Indeed the landing craft can assault all on its own with its ability to barge 7 units and disembark stuff or 8 units if there is nothing inside. Great fun doing that to a leman russ formation

Both armies are tough, elite CC troops with raving nutters. There is a limit to how much that can readily be differentiated mechanically. Also, potential differentiation was further limited when you intentionally incorporated a heavy deepstrike element into the World Eater list, which is a hallmark of loyalist marines.

Of course they play very similarly.


Like what?

This would mean going through the whole thing which I am not going to do.

At present I think Dobbsy's list is good albeit I just do not agree with some of the special rules or the Air Assault costs. I would also like to see the list gain a benefit from supporting other units to encourage the 'pack' feel rather than go off on the "we are crazed nutters" approach.

I do not feel any of my feedback has been unreasonable. In fact, it seems to be the only assistance Dobbsy is getting (although it appears like we are headbutting each other).

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Neal, I do not wish to de-rail this thread, however how would you expect the World Eaters to fight? This is a battle tactic that they have been using since before the Heresy.

My question to you: how is this list any different from a Marine list? How will it play differently? If the answer for a tournament list is no different from a vanilla Marine list (other than being more powerful), then that is where the problem lies.

So with that in mind, do you have any actual ideas for Dobbsy?

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