Steve54 wrote:
Firstly I'm suprised this issue has blown up 10 months after its implementation after zero complaints.
Yep. I missed it completely.
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The primary reason for the change in structure was to remove the 0-x restrictions which were in place before and too address that you could have 9 30cm move fearless WEs at 3k.
Both are worthy goals.
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allowing masses terminator armies with scout spam seemed like a route that needed to be avoided.
It's something to look for. It was not, however, a known problem. Should it be one, there are many methods for moderating this without completely shutting it down.
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With the new structure the fast WE are limited to 3 at 3k, and you now have to make difficult choices - you can take multiple terminators but then lose out on vital scouts, MW WE, and activation count and vice versa. Which I think forces the list builder to make choices.
It does so at the expense of player options in other areas.
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Before you could take 2 bulked up terminators and still preserve activation count via multiple scout formations. I know certain groups reject the need for activations but that is my experience so that is the basis for my decisions.
I think this is only sort of true. By the time you bought a retinue and a FH formation, with an occasional transport, the cheapest you could get the "activation bulk" formations for was ~225 points which is decent but hardly crushing.
However, even if I grant you that this is true, so what? Was it cited as a balance problem because Black Legion were swamping people with scouts and activation count? Is a chaos warlord with a couple heavy terminator formations an issue with respect to background flavor?
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Restricting the list - drop lists - I don't see how this has been stopped you just now have to drop retinues or not use termies and drop scouts.
An SM drop list works because it has the adjuncts of teleport and air assault which can bring the full weight of the army in at the same time as the planetfall (even garrisoned Scouts and Speeders can be close enough to participate on Turn 1).
All those planetfall adjuncts are absent or seriously hindered in this list. As a result, this BL list can have ~2000 points of "deep strike" formations at max. That means a minimum of 1 full turn of split forces. That's a huge disadvantage. The only way it will work is if you load up on war engines for the non-deepstrike portion of the army, so they can survive while getting into position to support the drop, i.e. the same force composition as non-drop armies.
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Dropping scouts was viewed as such a problem that it is gone from SM
Planetfalling units with Scout ability was not a problem. The cheap "deathwind barrage" was the problem. SM Scouts were dropped because they were the vehicle for that.
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- armour,bikes - you could still easily have 4-6 formations of bikes or armour but now would have to take 2-3 retinues.
I agree it's possible to work around the restrictions to a certain extent. The question is why should you have to do so. Does forcing the Retinues improve the list in some way? Does it enhance flavor? Balance? If not, then it's just a downgrade for no purpose.
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IMO the basis for the BL should be black legionnaires as they are supposed to be the biggest most powerful traitor legion with no particular affinity for massed armour or massed bikes.
Black Legion is not "just Black Legion". It's the generic, multi-purpose chaos marine list and should reflect not just pure BL style but incorporate a variety of other options. Steel Legion doesn't have a particular affinity for infantry forces but infantry-heavy (even foot-slogger heavy) is a viable army composition because SL is the multi-purpose IG list.
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If I take Biel-tan eldar I can't take an all tank list, if I take steel legion I can't take (without losing the vital SC) a tank list or even an infantry list.
You can find certain styles of list that don't work for any of the core armies. However, that's missing the point. There are multiple styles which
are available for each army.
You can't take an all-tank army with Biel Tan, but you can take cheap mech infantry and armor for a very tank-heavy force. You can take a fast attack force with mech infantry and jetbikes. You can take an air assault deepstrike army, a storm serpent deepstrike army, or a combination of the two (with some teleport mixed in as well). You can take a tough line of Guardians/Wraithguards with armor running hit-and-run attacks out of the "safe" infantry areas. You can take a popcorn army if you want. Two hosts seems like a small choice but they actually allow for a massive variety through customization - bigger, tougher, shootier, assault, fast, whatever.
I can make a similar list of styles available to IG or any of the other "core" lists. Marines and Orks have free choice of formations. IG and Eldar have a wide variety of "core" choices and relatively loose support restrictions. Even L&D is pretty flexible because it has a fairly customizable core (the Coven is cheap and has cheap upgrades to make it shooty, assaulty, faster or tougher), plus a dizzying number of unit and formation options outside the core Covens.
However, there is nothing approaching that flexibility in this Black Legion list. There is one formation of all-rounder troops. Customization is limited. You can make it shooty or assaulty, but only by adding to it at substantial point cost. Choice of support elements is restricted on top of that.
It's just too restrictive for a generalist army list.
, although worries about how its implemented.
