Yes that is my intention, that a Thirsting formation will be hard to rally in the end phase (They're not interested in re-organising and sharing out ammo etc. they're having strange visions of fighting Horus and maybe attacking their squadmates... I do not see them shedding blast markers under such a circumstance!), and be almost impossible to rally from being broken (Thirsting Blood Angels who are Broken have quite possibly succumbed to the Black Rage, and are now busy killing each other... rallying will be hard, to say the least).

Such is the horrible curse of the Blood Angels, and such is the drawback to their +5cm speed Rhinos and cool new Skimmer toys.

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I'm with Chroma, 2+ initiative and +1 (or +2) to engage seems to nicely represent it without adding large numbers of clauses and subclauses to represent what should be a fairly minor flavour rule.

I'd rather remove the rule entirely than have a rule like that, which though similar, largely mis-represents the effects of the Red Thirst, IMO.


Nope the Red Thirst affects squads for the entire game in 40k (Ie: One turn of Epic). You roll when the squad is deployed and if you roll a 1 that's it, they're crazy for the whole game.

The background text represents it as being psychologically "catching", too. I can easily see it affecting a whole formation as the Thirst takes hold (Which is what a basic initiative of 2+ would also achieve, of course, only that would affect the whole army 100% of the time...).

My proposed rule shows the Blood Angels having trouble getting back in control of their troops after they have started to go crazy / failed an order (but once they're back under control they're reliable again), and a flat Initiative of 2+ would just make them unreliable all the time.

That (Flat Initiative 2+ at all times, with a bonus to Engage) doesn't "feel" right to me. It feels more appropriate to, well, Khorne.

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Considering some Blood Angels go completely nuts before they even reach the battlefield and have to join the Death Company, I'd say yes.

But of course, it's going to be less likely early in the game as it's hard to fail activations with a Marine army that has no BM's on it!

So again, the flaw will only tend to show itself as the tempo of battle rises...

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The long ago design concept was largely infantry with attached armor and special assets instead of separate formations. That was retained through the emphasis on Assault Marines as that existed somewhat originally and they are compatible concepts. I think this set of changes eliminates a lot of that. I think you're verging on ending up with another armor-heavy SM list, with faster tanks, options for up to 8 armor units in a "company" formation and infantry detachments that can technically take up to 10 armor units (6 Razorbacks + 4 Hvy Support).

I'd like to see you stick with the infantry/assault focus as there's nothing out there like that at the moment and we have 2 good armor-heavy SM lists. As far as the components, it's a variant list and should represent a typical or preferred style of fighting. It doesn't need to include every option in the Codex, only those that are iconic.

I'd skip the Red Thirst as well. Again, I think the rules are pretty darn amusing but if they were really that hard to control I think they would have been put down.

The upgrade options for the Baal Predator formation could easily be removed, leaving just a 4 tank formation (Baal Predator), as opposed to the three 4 tank formations of the Codex list (Land Raider, Vindicator, Predators (two types)). So still more limited in score especially if the Upgrade options are removed.

Here's the quote from the Codex that strongly encourages adding a Baal Predator formation:

"Due to its unique configuration... (description of Baal Predator here) ...Accordingly, Baal Predators are commonly used as vanguard units, operating far ahead of the main Blood Angels army, shredding the enemy's forward patrols, or looping around the front line to strike at ammo dumps, fuel stores or other vital targets. In smaller engagements a Baal might well be deployed in support of one or two Tactical or Assault Squads."

The implications of this passage are obvious, I think.



I do agree.


Some successor Chapters such as the "Exsanguinators" and the "Flesh Eaters" are noted to have been destroyed by the flaw.

The "Angels Encarmine" are noted as rarely having less than 30 members in their Death Company and normally have more, the "Lamenters" are remarked upon as genetically degenerate, and the "Knights of the Blood" have been expelled from the Imperium for their "terrible rage-fuelled carnage against enemies and allies alike".

The Flesh Tearers (1st generation offshoot) are said to now be losing more members to the Flaw than they can recruit and have "less than two centuries" left in them before they must be disbanded.

The Blood Angels themselves are on that same path, perhaps having a millenia left, but possibly not even that long. They have almost totally stopped working with allies due to the ammount of "accidental" collateral damage they cause whenever they go to war.


Basically, as the 40k timeline ends, they're right there on the edge of a cliff, travelling 100 miles per hour with no brakes.

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Because of that damned Predator Destructor.

Could drop some down to singles though, like the Land Raiders and Vindicators for starters?

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Or just remove the Predator Destructor because it does the same thing as the Baal Predator but not as well.

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This.

Done.


Done.


Done.


I assume that you'd intend Terminators to then gain access to Heavy Support, or they could never be mounted in Land Raiders.


Can't we fix the upgrade, rather than deleting it?

I was thinking 2 Land Speeders, 3 Bike units, or 4 attack bike units, for 100 points.

I know that 4 attack bikes for 100 points might sound scary, but that's the same cost as 4 Twin Heavy Bolter Razorbacks, which in turn aren't as good as 4 Twin Lascannon Razorbacks...


Yes I'd like to.


I'd rather 0-x them instead of upping their cost (limiting availability rather than simply unbalancing the list).

Can you explain why you think Devastators should be limited?
The Blood Angels are a Codex-adherent Chapter with just as many Devastators as the Ultramarines.

But they do also have notably less Bikes than other Codex chapters and they are said to use them more in an escort role than on their own... this just seems perfect as an upgrade.

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The Studio have painted up a nice new new Predator Destructor and included it in of their 3 sample Blood Angels lists on their site, which does suggest they use them.

I really like the idea of including The Red Thirst considering it's quite so common in W40k. It makes a good negative to counter the good positive of the faster movement and stormravens and makes the Blood Angels characterful and thematically interesting and different. Things like this should be the core of their vampiric light and dark character rather than just being a list of red painted marines with lots of assault marines and attached tanks (regardless of the original epic list design the Blood Angels have developed and changed since then). That said E&Cs formulation is a bit wordy and overcomplicated at the moment and something similar but simpler might be better.