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The new Blood Rage....

 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:14 pm 
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Also note that I suggest they should not be able to regroup on failure. If the Berserkers want to regroup they have to Marshall or wait to the end of the turn.


I like this.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:30 am 
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I'm too.
So the rule would be:

The followers of the Blood God live to slay in his name, and there are few as bloodthirsty, favoured and homicidal as the World Eaters. When the scent of the enemy is strong nothing can stand in their path to slaughter, but their frenzy can also cause them to abandon all strategy. Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and spacecraft) that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must choose one of the following rather than the normal Hold action: the formation may make one 'charge' move and then fight an assault or shoot once.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:43 am 
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So the way I see the possible wording from these last few replies is:

Any Berserk formation in a World Eaters army which fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook), must perform an Engage action in place of the normal Hold action - this includes no Shooting or Regrouping - and it must attempt to assault the closest enemy formation. The Berserk formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves.

The rule will apply to the unit, not the army.

Are we happy with this iteration or are there any wording or rules issues before I put it in?

One question that does not seem to have been discussed is whether the penalty applies to all activations or just the failure to engage, though the presumption is that it should apply to all activations.

Yep. The rule states if they fail their activation test - blanket ruling. You still have some options available to your berserkers in play - even if they will most likely be going hell for leather trying to reach assault, you may want to march for example. You won't be able to when you fail that roll and may end up in an assault you don't necessarily want i.e you may have the quarter back in your sights and end up assaulting the water boy  :laugh: or conversely you might want to smash the annoying ratling snipers and end up having to assault the Ogryns.... oops!

While I have serious reservations about having an all Fearless list
I've looked at reducing the fearless count. I'm just not sure where to remove it. At present there are 14 unit types with it. Should all the non-DC Daemon-type engines (slaughterer, engines) have it? Could they have it removed? We could argue even though they're deamonic entities that they do have some sense of being hurt... the lesser daemons aren't fearless for example. I'm not sure removing it from the berserkers is the way I want to go.

This problem also adds fuel to my reasoning regarding removal of the assault engines (as mentioned earlier in the thread and argued by Frogbear - who wants his engines). They add to the fearless count and I would rather focus on the World Eaters as I mentioned. It would also reduce the number of list entries. Frogbear, don'tget your knickers in a knot yet mate. They haven't yet been removed I'm just discussing an issue and I've not made the decision to remove them.

One thing that does bring a small amount of balance is having the non-fearless transports. The marines will need to withdraw to avoid being destroyed. Given this situation and your concern over fearless, it reinforces my hesitancy to introduce Neal Hunt's rule addition just yet. I think we need to try the WEs with normal assault resolution/withdrawal rules. It can alway be added later.





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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:51 am 
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Are we happy with this iteration or are there any wording or rules issues before I put it in?


Yes.

What is a 'Berzerk formation'?

Would it not be better to begin ala: 'A formation that contains units with the Berzerk unit ability...'

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:13 am 
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OK. I was trying to make it less wordy but that can be done no worries.  :))

I've adjusted it to:

In a World Eaters army, any formation containing Berserk units which fails its Action Test.... etc


I like to be different  :;):  :laugh:





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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:29 am 
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...containing units with the Berserk special ability...

Would be more in common with ususal rules wording.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:22 am 
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Alrighty then ... I think this is almost done.... :

In a World Eaters army, any formation containing units noted as having the Berserk special ability which fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook), must perform an Engage action in place of the normal Hold action - this includes no Shooting or Regrouping - and it must attempt to assault the closest enemy formation. The Berserk formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves


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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:37 am 
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Yep, I'm happy with that wording.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:35 am 
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So what happens if there's no enemy fms within engagement range?  I can see this causing some confusion (I don't know myself) and probably needs explaining in the rule too.

Does the fm make a full move towards the nearest enemy fm?
Does it stand still, unable to regroup, move or shoot?

Other than that though, it looks good to me.  :agree:





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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:46 am 
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They would still have to attempt to engage the nearest enemy formation, i.e. move directly towards them, but as per the normal engagement rules if no models make it into 15cm range the assault doesn't happen and the activation ends.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:47 am 
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Looks like we are almost there.

I am curious however why we have taken out the shooting ability. I thought there was support for this...?

Will the Cannons of Khorne have the 'Blood Rage/berserk' ability? If they do, can't anyone see an unnecessary weakness in this respect?

Will any of the titan formations be effected in the same way?

It is just a concern of mine that if something cannot fight with CC or FF effectively and are forced by a savvy opposing general to do so, that the World Eater list becomes a one trick pony to beat.

I like the progress we have made taking out the -1 and 30cm. This is my only 'balancing' issue now.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:04 am 
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I am curious however why we have taken out the shooting ability. I thought there was support for this...?

Will the Cannons of Khorne have the 'Blood Rage/berserk' ability? If they do, can't anyone see an unnecessary weakness in this respect?

Will any of the titan formations be effected in the same way?

The rule only applies to units with Berserk - namely all the World Eaters infantry(not the Legionnaires), Juggernauts, Scorpion, Slaughterer, Dreadnought and Destroyer at this stage. I'm not looking at putting it on all units unless there's a large push from people to add it to the entire list.

I am contemplating having just the World Eaters marines have the ability - as I think it may be more the fact they have their nutter's implants rather just being angry young men with large axes to bury in people's heads. Also, the standard BL berserkers don't use this rule so there definitely is a difference between the two marine types. I see it that's what makes World Eaters your basic Nutter's Nutters and a step beyond "normal" berserkers.

It's been added to the other units mentioned above to see how they fare.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:32 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 10 Jul. 2009, 05:04 )

The rule only applies to units with Berserk - namely all the World Eaters infantry(not the Legionnaires), Juggernauts, Scorpion, Slaughterer, Dreadnought and Destroyer at this stage. I'm not looking at putting it on all units unless there's a large push from people to add it to the entire list.

Awesome

So let's put the ruling in and get the list out  :wow:

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:57 am 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 09 Jul. 2009, 19:30 )

The followers of the Blood God live to slay in his name, and there are few as bloodthirsty, favoured and homicidal as the World Eaters. When the scent of the enemy is strong nothing can stand in their path to slaughter, but their frenzy can also cause them to abandon all strategy. Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and spacecraft) that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must choose one of the following rather than the normal Hold action: the formation may make one 'charge' move and then fight an assault or shoot once.

I like this one best.

I really don't think that we need to add in any more, this is elegant sufficiency.

I certainly don't think we need to add "bezerk" unit stipulation. Why complicate things? All formations! This includes things like cannons of Khorne... but remember that the wording in no way forces such units into base contact, they can firefight if they want!

Yes, this may be a distinct disadvantage for some formations. Good!

Other reasons to avoid such terminology: you have a specialist unit ability that doesn't do anything other than mark the unit and confer an ability onto the parent formation, and it muddies up unit abilities with formation rules, which don't normally interact like this. All in all, it really isn't necessary, all formations excluding aircraft can be subject to the rule.





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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:07 am 
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Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 10 Jul. 2009, 05:57 )

Other reasons to avoid such terminology: you have a specialist unit ability that doesn't do anything other than mark the unit and confer an ability onto the parent formation, and it muddies up unit abilities with formation rules, which don't normally interact like this.

The Tau "Co-Ordinated Fire" rule works in a similar way, adding an ability to the formation rather than just the unit.

So does "Commander" come to think of it.

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