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Blood Angels v2.04

 Post subject: Blood Angels v2.04
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:31 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 09 Jun. 2009, 18:08 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 09 Jun. 2009, 17:04 )

Just because they have a wider array of choices, it doesn't nessesarily follow that they'll be 'better'.

You could have two army lists, one with 2 unit choices and the other with 50 unit choices, but with the same overall level of power, as long as everything is balanced properly.

Urm... Ok, yes... and now back to BA! If you take a marine list and add to it you get a better marine list!

The challenge for a games designer when adding extra units to an existing force is to leave the overall power level of the army list unchanged (if he's concerned primarily about balance that is, which is not the case with many games, such as Warhammer 40,000, but should be the case for Epic lists).

As long as the overall power level is not affected and everything is balanced correctly, greater choice doesn't equal 'better', at least not in game terms.

More choice will be 'better' for the 'hobby' side of things (players have more options in themeing their force, and more options in the way their force can be used to play the game), but if that expanded choice also facilitates easier in-game victories, the game designer has failed.


So in essence I'm saying I think I'm skilled enough at games design to ride the whirlwind, and balance that see-saw, or something.  :))

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 Post subject: Blood Angels v2.04
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:32 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 09 Jun. 2009, 18:31 )

So in essence I'm saying I think I'm skilled enough at games design to ride the whirlwind, and balance that see-saw, or something.  :))

But beware the vindicator!   :ghost:

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 Post subject: Blood Angels v2.04
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:53 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 09 Jun. 2009, 18:48 )

Should I field my Ultramarines with Blood Angel list, I would still use Death Company. Then it's just a hard assault formation for that army.

Indeed for Codex Marines they'd be 'counts as' Vanguard Marines (Veteran Assault Marines for Codex Armylists).




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 Post subject: Blood Angels v2.04
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:04 am 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 09 Jun. 2009, 19:27 )

Quote: (Hena @ 09 Jun. 2009, 18:19 )

I think Rug does make a good point. There needs to be some definite drawback there IMO. Need to think a bit more.

Upcost the various non-Death Company formations slightly, and make the Death Company "free".

People not actually playing Blood Angels then pay for the "improvements" of the list by not fielding a Death Company.

Funny. Actually thats the Wh40k rules. You pay more points for some units but get your Death Company "free" (you get one Death Company model per Honour Guard, Terminator, Veteran Assault, Assault, Tactical and Devastator Squad but you can buy extra models if the whole Death Company doesn't exceed 10 models). So actually you are wasting points if you don't use the Death Company.

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 Post subject: Blood Angels v2.04
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:08 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 09 Jun. 2009, 17:02 )

No Pred formation.
No Sniper upgrade.
No small Assault formation.

Actually, it's no armor formations of any kind - LRs and Vindis are cut as well.

And the benefits of playing BA:

Cheaper & larger assault formations.

Access to the Baal Pred, Furiso and Redeemer as well as DC (it would be unfair to put the LS Storm in this list too)

Better choice of upgrades


I wouldn't call "access to the Death Company" a benefit at the moment.  It's mandatory and ridiculously expensive, thus substantially reducing the list's flexibility.  325 points for 4 infantry units sucks, no matter how good they are.

I am concerned that the BA list will just end up being "better marines", DC limited list composition.....

It is arguably "better marines" if you want to play ground pounders, but the consensus opinion is that Codex SM ground forces are substandard.  Improving something substandard isn't normally considered unbalanced.

As far as other deployment options, the BAs are definitely not appreciably better.  A drop pod army cannot take advantage of any of the different upgrades or the expanded assault marine formation.  An air assault army doesn't fit in Thawks or LCs any better than Codex.  The lack of a small Assault formation and the hard limits of the aircraft transport capacity keeps it from being easily min-maxed.  The only thing that might make BAs marginally better with drop/air strategies is the Furioso, and that's slated for a 50% price increase.

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 Post subject: Blood Angels v2.04
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:12 pm 
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I'll be updating the list either tonight or tomorrow, cheers.

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 Post subject: Blood Angels v2.04
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:22 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 10 Jun. 2009, 15:20 )

Your right, BA are not "appreciably better" at drop or air assault, I noticed you didn't say they are worse! I'd say they're at least on a par though, plus they are better ground pounders.

Then, maybe, the Blood Angel list becomes the default "ground pounder" Marine list as well.

I actually don't have a problem with that.

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 Post subject: Blood Angels v2.04
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:32 pm 
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Version 2.05 has been released,

Thread Closed.

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