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Super-heavy Tanks

 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:06 pm 
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Quote: (Legion 4 @ 12 Feb. 2009, 13:35 )

Nice Pic !!   The Stormblade is the one with the Plasma Cannon, F/W makes it in Epic scales along with the Shadowsword and Stormsword ... But you guys knew that !  8v)  I didn't know about the Stormlord ... so it's a heavy assault vehicle with it's troop carrying capability ?   :rock:                                                                                   And if you are talking about big crew heavy AFVs ... don't forget the German WWI A7V with a crew of 18 !   :sus:    But in reality Super Heavy AFVs became just big targets with the advent of effective CAS. And most likely a maintance nightmare ! The WWII German Maus and E-100 if they were actually fielded in numbers (I think 1 or 2 Maus actually left the factory ?!), when they weren't breaking down, they'd be pummeled with CAS.  Even my "beloved" Slammer 170 ton M2 GEV Tank would have been meat on the table for CAS, if Drake had not wisely incorperated the AI guided 20mm tri-barrels ... That not only could shoot down aircraft but FA rounds !  :oo:    :vD

Heh, yeah.  Gamers love the Panther.. .modelers love to put all those interlaced bogey wheels on -- it's a form of modeler macho.

But there's a reason the Germans only produced 5,000 of what should have been a front line tank, while the U.S. and Soviets produced 5 to 10 times as many Shermans or T-34s.

War is a bloody business -- it makes no sense to produce things that are so expensive or complicated as to be irreplaceable.  If not CAS, then IEDs.





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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:08 pm 
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What about the HammerTimeSword or the Banestormhammer? Or any other desperate attempt to milk this one plastic set for all it's worth, because they know some sad bugger will want one of each variant.

Makes the Fantasy Giant's marketing speel almost bearable in comparison.

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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:18 pm 
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From the epic point of view I could see the justification for one more super heavy that was AP focused. Then you have AT focus - shadowsword, the generalist - baneblade and the new one.

This is just another marketing ploy that will make GW a small fortune!


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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:19 pm 
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Is is just me or are the names for the new super heavies not very creative?

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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:25 pm 
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Quote: (Dwarf Supreme @ 12 Feb. 2009, 15:19 )

Is is just me or are the names for the new super heavies not very creative?

I'm just waiting for the Bladehammer... and it's dark cousin, the Hammerblade!

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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Quote: (Carrington @ 12 Feb. 2009, 15:06 )

Quote: (Legion 4 @ 12 Feb. 2009, 13:35 )

Nice Pic !!   The Stormblade is the one with the Plasma Cannon, F/W makes it in Epic scales along with the Shadowsword and Stormsword ... But you guys knew that !  Ã‚ I didn't know about the Stormlord ... so it's a heavy assault vehicle with it's troop carrying capability ?      And if you are talking about big crew heavy AFVs ... don't forget the German WWI A7V with a crew of 18 !   But in reality Super Heavy AFVs became just big targets with the advent of effective CAS. And most likely a maintance nightmare ! The WWII German Maus and E-100 if they were actually fielded in numbers (I think 1 or 2 Maus actually left the factory ?!), when they weren't breaking down, they'd be pummeled with CAS.  Even my "beloved" Slammer 170 ton M2 GEV Tank would have been meat on the table for CAS, if Drake had not wisely incorperated the AI guided 20mm tri-barrels ... That not only could shoot down aircraft but FA rounds !

Heh, yeah.  Gamers love the Panther.. .modelers love to put all those interlaced bogey wheels on -- it's a form of modeler macho.

But there's a reason the Germans only produced 5,000 of what should have been a front line tank, while the U.S. and Soviets produced 5 to 10 times as many Shermans or T-34s.

War is a bloody business -- it makes no sense to produce things that are so expensive or complicated as to be irreplaceable.  If not CAS, then IEDs.

Yes, German WWII engineering was like may things they did ... overly complicated ... After being a Maint Officer at both Bn & Bde level, the suspension on the Panther & Tigers looks like an accident waiting to happen ...  And look at a lot of G/W's & F/W's AFV designs. They are Doppelgangers of WWII German stuff. :oops:     And Jeri, don't forget ... they want to make a profit.  So doing what the Germans did out of war time needs, to mount various weapons on existing chassis, G/W does for their bottomline ... :yes:  FRoA #41 Profit is its own reward. :alien:  My "beef" with F/W & G/W is how many different versions of a Leman Russ or Land Raider do we need ?  I guess it all goes back to #41 :D




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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:44 pm 
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Whoa !!!  Stop the presses !!!  I just got my new issh of W/D in the mail ... :oh:  And included was a poster of those 8 SHT that BL posted !!  :oops: Wow !!  Freaky ! ???  They are making a full court press to sell those Big Boyz !?!? :vD

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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:59 pm 
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Quote: (Legion 4 @ 12 Feb. 2009, 10:30 )

My "beef" with F/W & G/W is how many different versions of a Leman Russ or Land Raider do we need ?

My thought also.

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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:19 pm 
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Quote: (Dwarf Supreme @ 12 Feb. 2009, 15:59 )

Quote: (Legion 4 @ 12 Feb. 2009, 10:30 )

My "beef" with F/W & G/W is how many different versions of a Leman Russ or Land Raider do we need ?

My thought also.

Well looks like we won't have to worry about that ... I'd be surprised if we saw another Epic/AI  piece for some time now ! ???

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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:32 pm 
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Quote: (Legion 4 @ 12 Feb. 2009, 15:30 )

Quote: (Carrington @ 12 Feb. 2009, 15:06 )

Quote: (Legion 4 @ 12 Feb. 2009, 13:35 )

Nice Pic !! � The Stormblade is the one with the Plasma Cannon, F/W makes it in Epic scales along with the Shadowsword and Stormsword ... But you guys knew that !   I didn't know about the Stormlord ... so it's a heavy assault vehicle with it's troop carrying capability ?     �And if you are talking about big crew heavy AFVs ... don't forget the German WWI A7V with a crew of 18 ! � But in reality Super Heavy AFVs became just big targets with the advent of effective CAS. And most likely a maintance nightmare ! The WWII German Maus and E-100 if they were actually fielded in numbers (I think 1 or 2 Maus actually left the factory ?!), when they weren't breaking down, they'd be pummeled with CAS.  Even my "beloved" Slammer 170 ton M2 GEV Tank would have been meat on the table for CAS, if Drake had not wisely incorperated the AI guided 20mm tri-barrels ... That not only could shoot down aircraft but FA rounds !

Heh, yeah.  Gamers love the Panther.. .modelers love to put all those interlaced bogey wheels on -- it's a form of modeler macho.

But there's a reason the Germans only produced 5,000 of what should have been a front line tank, while the U.S. and Soviets produced 5 to 10 times as many Shermans or T-34s.

War is a bloody business -- it makes no sense to produce things that are so expensive or complicated as to be irreplaceable. �If not CAS, then IEDs.

Yes, German WWII engineering was like may things they did ... overly complicated ... After being a Maint Officer at both Bn & Bde level, the suspension on the Panther & Tigers looks like an accident waiting to happen ... �And look at a lot of G/W's & F/W's AFV designs. They are Doppelgangers of WWII German stuff. :oops: � � And Jeri, don't forget ... they want to make a profit. �So doing what the Germans did out of war time needs, to mount various weapons on existing chassis, G/W does for their bottomline ... :yes: �FRoA #41 Profit is its own reward. :alien: �My "beef" with F/W & G/W is how many different versions of a Leman Russ or Land Raider do we need ? �I guess it all goes back to #41 :D

Heh.  A while ago, I realized that my childhood frustration with Panthers (bogey-wheels superglued to fingers) in contrast with Shermans (assembled quickly and easily) was actually something of a substantive insight into the course of World War II.

Speaking of CAS, I was just reading a very interesting piece arguing that the decision to discontinue the Ju-87 was indicative of the German high command's insulation from reality (though one shared by the Western Allies, who never really got it together on CAS). The second to last thing the Germans needed was the Me-262 (after the V1/V2/jet bombers which could have no tactical effect).

It's interesting that the Soviets actually did 'learn' from the Ju-87's success, basically discontinuing all their 4-engine bombers in favor of the Sturmovick.  It's also interesting, from the gamer's perspective, that they tended to like the lend-lease Shermans as much as their T-34s...

But G/W is just banking on the collector's instinct... Which, given my own propensity to collect lead and plastic, I can't necessarily say is a bad idea!





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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:50 pm 
True dat. You guys crack me up.





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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:52 pm 
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Quote: (Carrington @ 12 Feb. 2009, 17:32 )

Speaking of CAS, I was just reading a very interesting piece arguing that the decision to discontinue the Ju-87 was indicative of the German high command's insulation from reality (though one shared by the Western Allies, who never really got it together on CAS). The second to last thing the Germans needed was the Me-262 (after the V1/V2/jet bombers which could have no tactical effect).

Link please!
:)

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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:05 pm 
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Quote: (Carrington @ 12 Feb. 2009, 11:32 )

Speaking of CAS, I was just reading a very interesting piece arguing that the decision to discontinue the Ju-87 was indicative of the German high command's insulation from reality

That and its obsolescence.

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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:30 pm 
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Quote: (Dwarf Supreme @ 12 Feb. 2009, 17:05 )

Quote: (Carrington @ 12 Feb. 2009, 11:32 )

Speaking of CAS, I was just reading a very interesting piece arguing that the decision to discontinue the Ju-87 was indicative of the German high command's insulation from reality

That and its obsolescence.

That's part of the issue.  The Stuka was obsolescent like the A-10 is now: slow, unglamorous, (relatively) easy pickings for high performance fighters. In reality, though, it did its job very well.

From "The German Luftwaffe: Stuka Versus Bomber Analysis," p.131 in America's Defense Meltdown

"However, far more importantly, the bombers’ funding was 25 times greater than
the Stukas’ – given that one bomber equaled the cost of five Stukas. This advantage
provided the bomber a funding advantage of 96 percent bombers to 4 percent Stukas.
It is also notable that the Germans produced 114,000 aircraft of all types. Despite
the failure of the German strategic campaigns (discussed below), this total included
25,000 bombers but only 4,900 Stukas. Had the investment made in multi-engine
bombers been transferred to Stukas, 125,000 Ju-87s would have resulted."

When you begin to talk about 125,000 Ju87s (or 49000 instead of 4900) you're talking about the 'obsolescence' of the Sherman vis-a-vis the Panther.  You're also talking about a very different operational situation in the desert or in Russia. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

A similar point might be made about the British investment in Lancasters (rather than, say, Typhoons).





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 Post subject: Sper-heavy Tanks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:39 pm 
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Quote: (Carrington @ 12 Feb. 2009, 12:30 )

When you begin to talk about 125,000 Ju87s (or 49000 instead of 4900) you're talking about the 'obsolescence' of the Sherman vis-a-vis the Panther.

The Sherman wasn't obsolete. It was being used in a role for which it was never designed. However, this subject is waaaay off topic.  :vD

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