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Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Dobbsy

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:31 pm

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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 11 May 2006 (07:32))

I thought el manta had the same armour save? And ironically itsw the better at surviving TK fire than imperials, but worse at the more common AT fire.

The FF is a minus, but the CC isn't - as it can't be cc'ed in return after all!

So are you going to wieght each pro and con, or is each big one equal to another big one?

Doesn't the "more common AT fire" mean it gets hit more often then TRC? In turn, meaning it lasts a shorter time given there are "more" AT shots out there giving it more blast markers?

basic Big=Big TRC

This was all IMO remember

TK shots to kill a Warlord =14 (6 on shields 8 to kill)
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Manta ?=16 (half saved on 4+ deflector shield)

MW shots to kill a Warlord = 22 ? ( 6 on shields 16 to kill if half are saved with 4+ RA roll)
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Manta ? = 24 ?( 5+ deflector shield save would mean 8 saved out of 24 then the 4+ RA roll would mean 16 would be needed after penetration of the DS save)

AT hits to kill a Warlord =38 ?(6 on shields then 32 needed for the 4+ then 4+ RA saves to be penetrated)
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Manta ? =38 ?(DS saves of 6 + would mean 38 or 39 hits would be needed for the 32 hits to get through the RA saves.) ? ?

Ok Dexy's I'll defer to you. Provided you take into account that those stats for firing will be a heck of a lot easier to place on a Manta than a Warlord given everything can see the Manta and not necessarily everything can see a Warlord.

On the CC/FF values - even though you can only FF the Manta, the other titans still have better FF values. Also the other titans have CC in their favour when they want to CC another formation. Manta doesn't get that option.

I can see that it's survivability is better in CC though. Having to FF it gives it shield saves where a Warlord doesn't get void shield saves. Unless you get it into b-t-b of course....

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Tactica

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:40 am

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Quote (dptdexys @ 11 May 2006 (13:46))

Other "Titans" get cover saves from terrain etc. and the Manta doesn't. (Big Con)

I would only say this is a small con because,
Titans can get the -1 to hit for being in/behind cover but not a cover save.
Other titans will have to manouvere more than the Manta to aquire a target (due to terrain feratures)and will be using sustain fire orders less often than a Manta is capable of .
Also the Manta can ignore all terrain (other titans have to take a difficult terrain test when moving in terrain features such as woods and ruins and they may have to move around some features such as buldings and wide rivers) This can give the ?Manta a small advantage when grabbing objectives.

I don't really want to get into yours and Steele's debate/discussion... so, I may regret saying anything here as, for now, I'm content with CS's direction to go to Init 1 and 800 for the Manta.

+ + +

Its been said that 'One unit' always being seen by 'an entire enemy army' is a very large negative. The fact that the 'one unit' can always see 'the entire enemy army' is somewhat negligable by comparison!

Its a 1:Many relationship and has been previously proven on more than one occasion to be a major negative to the Support Craft in the end.

Said negative probably falls into this terrain cover category of your discussion though.

PS - do not underestimate the value of being able to putting the enemy at -1 to hit or simply being able to get out of LOF of even some of the enemy fire.

Being able to put the enemy at -1 to hit from cover means he may not opt to double and fire at you now as -2 becomes too much of a negative - for example. The enemy might double at you if you are always 'in the open' though. So not being able to use cover affords your opponent more flexability in dealing with you, as well as making you easier to hit by comparison to things that can get into cover.

So for what its worth, I quite on the side of Steele in the LOF and not being able to use Terrain categorization of "big Con"

+ + +

I'll let you guys get back to it now, sorry to intrude.

Cheers,

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 10:09 am

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Quote (dptdexys @ 11 May 2006 (19:46))

TK shots to kill a Warlord =14 (6 on shields 8 to kill)
Manta =16 (half saved on 4+ deflector shield)

MW shots to kill a Warlord = 22 ( 6 on shields 16 to kill if half are saved with 4+ RA roll)
Manta = 24 ( 5+ deflector shield save would mean 8 saved out of 24 then the 4+ RA roll would mean 16 would be needed after penetration of the DS save)

AT hits to kill a Warlord =38 (6 on shields then 32 needed for the 4+ then 4+ RA saves to be penetrated)
Manta =38 (DS saves of 6 + would mean 38 or 39 hits would be needed for the 32 hits to get through the RA saves.)

Its only when cover is involved and the -1 comes into effect for shooting that the number of attacks needed goes up but the hits needed still remain the same.As i stated above this is partially offset by the fact the Manta has to manouver less to acquire targets When cover is involved.

I never realised until now that the deflector shield was a 'third' save. Things you learn.

(I can confirm the numbers considering the above incidentally -
Manta vs Warlord
16tk (1/2 saved) vs 14tk (6 ignored, none saved)
24mw (2/3?s saved) vs 22mw (6 ignored, 1/2 saved)
38.4at (19/24 saved) vs 38at (6 ignored, 3/4 saved) )

Hell with that I wouldn't say being a support craft was that bad. I can consider planetfalling to avoid the majority of units turn 1, otherwise I have the range to strike any formations advancing turn 1 from my deployment area without much in the way of return fire. I think only a specialised IG force could knock me out of the sky without me firing back (and they have worse strat rating).

On sheer firepower does anything match it at that points?

I'd go with 800 and 1+ init for now. Considering the above news on the save I'd try it at 850!

It is tricky mind you to cost these big its of kit, it seems largely to be guess work!

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thurse

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:43 pm

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Hi!

I would not reduce the cost too much, as the manta compares well with other biggest titans.
IMHO Mantas should not be an option for powergamers in a 3000-point army ( as most other titans are ), but should add the option of building a different army, fun but that gives a hard time to the player. 1+ init would nice tough for the planetfalling option, which adds a lot of flavour to the mantas.

Concerning support crafts in general, for me the main drawbacks is that it adds possibilities to the opponent. When a formation hides behind a building, or try to contest an objective, it often loses line of sight and can hardly shoot efficiently. But here, you still have the possibility to shoot at support crafts. Thats why they tend to receive a lot of BM.

If you dont mid I'd like to talk a bit of the moray.
To be honest, I've rarely been successful with them. Morays are very fragile and break easily when used alone. They really requires some practice to be used efficiently, especially when you are used to playing eldars or IG super heavies.

The thing that worked well for me is planetfalling a 2-moray formation near one side of the board at the end of a turn. This way you reduce the number of units that are in range, and if you sustain, that's 12 shots at AP/AT 2+, average 10 shots. Quite good ( but sustaining with revenants give you an average 8.4 MW shots... Ok I know they are a bit OTT ).

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 1:25 pm

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Instead of a points drop, what if they could planetfall without a spaceship dropping them? I.e. they have made it to orbit and planet side under their own steam?

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 1:54 pm

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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 12 May 2006 (13:25))

Instead of a points drop, what if they could planetfall without a spaceship dropping them? I.e. they have made it to orbit and planet side under their own steam?

This may be a nice idea. Mantas are the 'attack craft' in Gothic, and so there is a precident for these things making short, space flights.

I must admit that the 'can see and be seen' issue does seem to more of a burden than a bonus, since it takes away the units ability to chose its battles and engage specific enemy on its own terms - an ability which can really add to the usefulness of larger units.

I do feel that in typical forces, there will be one of these, easily the biggest unit and BTS goal as well as representing a large investment in percentage of the points and offensive capacity... and it is unable to hide from anything. Sure, it may target its attackers, but with two or three smaller killer units, the Manta is on borrowed time from turn one, and there is little that it can do about it.

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Xisor

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 2:15 pm

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The idea of 'free'[unrestricted] Planetfall is perfect IMO. Absolutely perfect.

Not only is it the case that it'd be able to operate without larger starships [I also seem them as highly efficient system ships as described: they match it perfectly!], but they also operate freely from Orbitals and Waystations too. Those most certainly *never* make low orbit passes over the battlefield!

Doing this allows the 'end of turn' drops that everyone is speaking of without any attendent unnecessary disability[ie having to take a Spaceship]. So it can *miss* a turn of fire, but still contribute in full.

What about integrated Command Drones? These changes combined would make it worth it's 850pts again.

Xisor

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thurse

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 2:32 pm

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The idea of 'free'[unrestricted] Planetfall is perfect IMO. Absolutely perfect.

A side effect is that you wouldn't have to retain initiative as there is no starship. I'd like the same rule for morays too.

Sure, it may target its attackers, but with two or three smaller killer units, the Manta is on borrowed time from turn one, and there is little that it can do about it

I was wondering if you plan to change the support craft rules CS? ( I'm not lobbying for or against a change, just curious :cool:

)

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colonel_sponsz

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 2:35 pm

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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 12 May 2006 (13:25))

Instead of a points drop, what if they could planetfall without a spaceship dropping them? I.e. they have made it to orbit and planet side under their own steam?

Genius.

That 'counts as' a points drop as you no longer have to buy the space ship. To my mind, planetfall also represents deploying from another loaction, still planet side but away from the battlefield, which fits the manta mode of operation as described in IA3 quite nicely.

You have your Pathfiders and/or Stealth Teams scouting ahead, they engage the enemy to pin them which allows Mantas (and Orcas) to bring in the main force.

Marines pretty much have the drop-from-orbit attack sewn up so this would give the Tau a nice edge in keeping with the background.

Orde

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baronpiero

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:31 pm

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I will try to sum-up Manta vs Warlord comparison as I see it:

Manta vs Warlord

Speed and maneuvrability:
- Manta is 5cm faster.
- Warlord has initiative 1+. This has more value IMO.
=>Small win for the Warlord.

Weaponry:
- Manta has a better standard weapon configuration.
- Manta has extra weapons (namely burst cannons & missiles)
=>Small win for the Manta

Resilience:
Both have 4+ rerollable save and shields. While totally opposed, the shields appear equivelent to me. Still the deflector is more durable and will never go down. That's something I appreciate.
=>But let's suppose it's equivelent.

Firefight:
- Warlord is better in a firefight situation
=>Small win for the Warlord.

Close combat:
- Warlord can inflict even more damage in base contact.
- Manta is immune to CC attacks (especially powerfists!) that's great!
=>Small win for the Manta

Tactical use:
- Warlord can get 'hulled down' from terrain (-1 to be hit) and may eventually be out of sight.
- Warlord cannot be crossfired (Thick-rear armoured)
- Manta can Planetfall. To me it's really an option with its pros and cons, not something that will always pay off. Especially, don't forget that the Tau paradox applies to the Manta as well: Get in range to shoot but not too close. So beware not landing your most expensive formation in the heart of the ennemy.
- Manta can Transport units. Same as planetfall.
=>Which one is tactically better is difficult to say.

To sum-up my point, I see them different but supposedly of equal value in the end. The problem may be a misuse, or a lack of suitable targets: indeed the Manta really is a Titan killer first and foremost, able to take on the largest threat toe to toe and win. Personaly I'm fine with it because my opponents often field a big titan or a sht company, and I can tell you they fear the heavy rails.

It's also a hard to get "break the spirit" objective.

It's a nice firefight umbrella and a good deterrant to air assaults nearby.

Finally I'm not sure I want to see initiative go up, or the cost go down unless you're convinced that the Warlord is overcosted.

EDIT: a built-in planetfall capability seem quite interesting.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:44 pm

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Quote (dptdexys @ 11 May 2006 (19:46))

Other Titans get better armour saves/shields than the Manta (Big Con)

This i do not understand as when you do the maths the Manta is better than a Warlord when it comes to surviving ranged attacks.

TK shots to kill a Warlord =14 (6 on shields 8 to kill)
Manta =16 (half saved on 4+ deflector shield)

MW shots to kill a Warlord = 22 ( 6 on shields 16 to kill if half are saved with 4+ RA roll)
Manta = 24 ( 5+ deflector shield save would mean 8 saved out of 24 then the 4+ RA roll would mean 16 would be needed after penetration of the DS save)

AT hits to kill a Warlord =38 (6 on shields then 32 needed for the 4+ then 4+ RA saves to be penetrated)
Manta =38 (DS saves of 6 + would mean 38 or 39 hits would be needed for the 32 hits to get through the RA saves.)

Its only when cover is involved and the -1 comes into effect for shooting that the number of attacks needed goes up but the hits needed still remain the same.As i stated above this is partially offset by the fact the Manta has to manouver less to acquire targets When cover is involved.

Again i would say this is a small con .

I'd say that this analysis is flawed because the Manta's shielding/armor is better at protecting it against the typical anti-titan progression of fire.

Normally, when targetting a titan with shields the enemy will use AT to strip shields and MW/TK to go for the kill. If you assume 6-8 AT hits to strip shields, the Manta comes out ahead. 6 is easier for the math, so we'll use that.

MW fire for kill after 6 AT hits:
20.25 to kill the Manta
16 for Warlord

TK fire for kill after 6 AT hits:
13.5 for Manta
8 for Warlord

Obviously, shields regenerate and if you get close to killing a Warlord titan but don't finish the job it will likely require an additional investment in shield-stripping. There is also the fact that the "stripping" fire rarely lines up exactly with the number of shields. Both of those serve to bring a Warlord back up to the Manta's level, but I'd say it's pretty much a wash.

I think it's a stretch to say the Manta's armor and shielding is worse by an objective measure.

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HecklerMD

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 3:40 am

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Awhile back I endorsed the +1 init option, but after consideration on my part and consultations with other players in my group (which I'll be disclosing in the near future), I'm not so down with that. I think the Mantas Init should remain 2+

When a Manta fails to activate, its not such a big deal, usually: The range and accuracy of its weapons allow it to fail to activate and, usually, still shoot at its target. Not always, but usually. Last time I took a Manta, it Activated in turn 1, Marshalled, killed a warhound, and never rallied or activated again, all while taking down 2 more warhounds and banging up a 4th.

However I think that the greatest tragedy in a Tau army occurs when a broken Manta fails to rally, so in addition to TRC's excellent planetfall suggestion, I think that rather than 1+ init for the Manta, they should have a +1 to rally-rolls and leader

I also happen to think these should apply to the Moray, and so I think it would be a clean solution to add these things to the "Support Craft" section (Except leader) of the special rules.

With those changes I think the price should stay 850pts.

Edit: I played around with the Support Craft text:

"Support Craft are actually small Tau Spacecraft, and so are able to enter and leave the atmosphere freely: This allows Tau Support Craft to Planetfall without an actual spacecraft carrying them. The arrival turn and location must still be pre-determined by the Tau player as in 4.4 in the Epic: Armageddon Rules Book. Support craft remain high up in the air, this means they can always draw a line of fire to any target and vice versa, like aircraft. They also never block LOF to other units, including other support craft. They ignore terrain when moving and never count as being in cover, nor can they provide cover for friendly troops, as they are too far away from the ground. They can only deploy troops immediately after they have performed a planetfall. In an assault, they work exactly like skimmers. Lastly, Aircaste crews are trained to conduct attacks against heavily armed enemy spacecraft and to land troops while under fire. Ground fire, however heavy, does not faze them for long; Tau Support Craft recieve a +1 bonus to rally-rolls in the end phase."

Eh?

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 7:26 am

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So would this be (as I have no idea how it would work

) activate manta, planetfall, open fire?

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 8:29 am

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OK. To draw a few things together...

(When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie... Thats...) The Moray - Currently I would like to leave these unchanged. I am very wary of dragging other units into the blast zone of changes like this because it seems like a good idea (which it might be). I think that we should sort out the Manta, test it and then evaluate whether the Morays need changing, and whether the Manta changes would apply. Also, the Morays are a different use in the force, and the while the Manta has a definite history of interplanetary and atmospheric travel, that is not the same with the Moray. I am not saying that they will or wont be changed, rather that it would be good to resolve the Manta and then turn our attention to the Moray.

Support Craft rule - I am not considering making a change to the support craft rule at this time, rather looking at an addition to a specific unit (the Manta). Being able to hover above the battlefield in the 'support craft' way does not (in my mind) automatically also require 'solo space travel'.

Manta; atmospheric craft - I really like the idea of allowing planetfall without a space craft required. I think that this makes the unit much more useable, and means that you save the points otherwise spent on the space vessel, making the Manta more economic. However, would this still be affected by enemy space craft arriving on the planetfall turn?

Manta; init - I am happy to consider raising the initiative of the Manta to 1+, or some other solution. I am cautious about a +1 to rally rolls and leader, and think that an init1+ would have a very similar effect in a much cleaner and easier to understand/remember method. That said, I am open to opinions on this.

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