Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 133 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Marines vs. Titans

 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:08 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
A sound tactic, Neal ... envelopement/Hammer & Anvil ...  :;):

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:45 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
Posts: 720
Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.
I am begining to feel more, and more, (as I read the thread here and on the SG boards concerning this issue) that the detractors aren't really interested in a exsisting solution, they are only interested in their proposed new solution.

Propose the use of a Titan and they reply they shouldn't have to do that becuase it isn't the Marine thing to do.

Propose the use of Lanspeeders, Crossfire, Supression etc and they reply that they shouldn't have to do it that way, or some such similar dribble.

Yes Marines do have effective ways (plural) of dealing with titans, no the Marines don't need a Titan Weapopn Fix beyond those they already have, and I guess you are going to have to live with the fact that no  new macro-devastator need be created to solve a problem that doesn't really exsist.

This may sound rude but I am really getting tired of the detractors coming up with the same excuses for this non-problem when real effective solutions are offered.

Jaldon :p

_________________
Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:31 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:06 pm
Posts: 944
Location: UK
If it hasnt already been sudjested... Maybe Marines could have a "Macross/GunDam" styled titan that is deployed from space in "dropship" form, transforming into a walker whilst decending through the atmoshpere.
That would be fast :cool:

_________________
Nuf Said.

Da Gargant Ownerz Klub and Avatarz by KroozA


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm
Posts: 1673
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Quote (Jaldon @ 05 Feb. 2006 (21:45))
I am begining to feel more, and more, (as I read the thread here and on the SG boards concerning this issue) that the detractors aren't really interested in a exsisting solution, they are only interested in their proposed new solution. ...

Jaldon :p

Well, I suppose you're right, in some respect. My main experience with marines comes from 40k, and it colors my views of the way marines "ought to be" in Epic. I realize that the two games are different, and I should adjust, but it takes some time. The reason I never tried using land speeders (or multiples of anything other than the infantry) is because in 40k, marine infantry is the gold standard. That is ingrained into my brain, and it is hard to get out of that mindset. Land speeders, bikes, whirlwinds, and the like have their place, but they aren't that useful in the long run.

That being said, I see now that using land speeder detachments is effective enough in dealing with at least a single titan. Even so, I still feel that marine infantry just isn't up to snuff. I dunno, maybe I just don't like to play in the way that is necessary for marines to win. I prefer stand-off and shoot play, and marines aren't so good at that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
Well I've been playing Epic since '90 ... an attached Titan, OWPs/space craft, CAS, FA and Firepower works ... And basing 40K SM tactics and Epic SM tactics is not a valid "fit".   All 10 of my Epic Armies are ranged weapons armies and not C/Cbt as in 40k (do not play 40k - rules suck; always have ...)  Titans are deployed by Dropships ... off board ... the board is a slice of the battlefield.  After 15+ years of playing Epic, I don't see a problem ... but many "young turks" like to "reinvent the wheel" !  :p :;): :D :laugh:

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:40 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
Posts: 515
As one of these rampant upstarts, I don't see why the Multi-Melta option *shouldn't* be an option. It is blatant that marines can utilise this option. Like it or not(IMO), this should be an option for Marines in some form. If it requires a second list(Salamanders) to facilitate this playstyle then so be it. However, I don't see why this shouldn't be an option in the Epic Armageddon 'standard' List.

Fortunately, my starting point hasn't stemmed strictly from a fix. My opinion on things so far is that the Multi melta is a deserved option and something that should have been a possibility from the outset. Marines have the tools for it. It's not a fix against titans, it allows them more options, but I don't see any reason against it other than rampant resistance to a proposal.

I guess you are going to have to live with the fact that no  new macro-devastator need be created to solve a problem that doesn't really exsist
How very diplomatic of you Jaldon. True as it may be, I do realise the need is the part that your point hinges on. Need or not, the Marines in 40k(the system from which this game is invariably linked...like it or not) and in the fluff of the 40k Universe are quite capable of forming and using the melta-devastator or melta-tactical formations. Whether they get used by certain chapters or whether a sit-back-and-shoot method is adapted is largely beside the point I make.

I firmly belive Marines fluffwise, and in 40k, have a capacity to deal with Titans, plural. I don't think they should suffer directly because of this in Epic. They can deal with one titan quite well. What about two, or three, or four? Without tailoring a list to accomodate, will you really be able to suitably work this? The proposals I've made allow for the 'macro devs'(or whatever variant) to be quite effective against both War Engines and other formations. The detriment of course is the extreme lack of range inherent compared to the current system.

If it is insited on disregarding 40k as a plausible excuse for things, then I personally believe such a view would be...difficult...to incorporate into an integrated development of Epic Armageddon(one which is cross-compatible and plausible with both Warhammer 40,000, Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda:The Underhive and Inquisitor). I'm not capable of fully judging the Marine list, but I simply don't see why a Macro-dev or Macro-tac squad is implausible or out of the question. As a response to the Titan problem(if it exists) is a different matter, that I can admit. I think the two can be worked together though(thus Marines have an increased ability, deservedly so IMO, against Titans and the simple flexibility of design that they have as described before[BFG has mega-problems here, more so than Epic Armageddon]).

_________________
"Number 6 calls to you
The Cylon Detector beckons
Your girlfriend is a toaster"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:32 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
Or ... do as I always say ... "do what works for you !" ... We use Titans, Off Board Spt, FA, CAS, and Firepower ... if you want to give SMs Multi-meltas, TOWs, M47 Dragons, Saggers, RPGs, AT-4s, Bazookas, etc., etc. ... do what works for you ... not me ... ? :;):   Jaldon & I are just "old school" ...  :laugh:




_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:22 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
While not diplomatically put, I tend to agree with what Jaldon posted.  It seems increasingly that all existing options are simply being discounted out of hand.

===

Xisor:  While I agree that you have a point on the background, every army could make similar points.  Why can't Orks take Mega-Armored Nobz or Burna Boyz?  Why does a Swooping Hawk Exarch add the same abilities as a Fire Dragon Exarch?  Why can't IG Fire Support take Lascannons?

The reason is that it's simply getting too fiddly.  At some point, you have to say "enough" and start abstracting something so that the game doesn't become bogged down as if it were a huge game of 40K.

In point of fact, Marine squads are assumed to be carrying a variety of all the special weapons and using them as-needed.  Not every squad carries a Missile Launcher.  Some carry Multi-meltas.  The attack value of SM infantry is supposed to model the aggregate effect of all the various weapon options.  It is simply labeled "Missile Launcher" for convenience because it is considered the generic marine armament.

Likewise, Ork Nobz' stats are an aggregate of mega-armor, non-mega-armor and various kustom weapons.  Boyz include some burna boyz.  IG "autocannons" include all the various options.  Exarchs are generalized on the argument that a single specially armed individual should not be treated to that much customization at this scale.

So, in light of that and imho, any addition of detailed weapon loads necessarily requires a demonstrated need.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
Posts: 515
Nealhunt,

I've considered almost all of those points, unless I'm mistaken. I understand their significance. Hence why I've not been pushing for Lascannon Devastators. A suitable 'get out clause' backing to the Macro-melta proposal is this(IMO): Not only does it provide an extra option to the Tactical(or devastator) squad it is applied to, but adequately provisions the Space Marine Tactical Formation to not simply fiddly-style tailored, but gives it a serious alternative in use. The idea, as far as I'm aware, behind the Tactical squad is that it is quite a ubiquotous squad.

I can't deny that they are capable 'all round', but they are also, in the style of Marines, supposed to be a bit more capable 'up close and personal'(ie the jack of all trades in 40k Scale...which is typically 'abstracted'/represented by an Engagement in Epic, no?).

Perhaps it is a daft goal, but I(obviously) think the proposal adds more to the Marine list than it takes away from the game(by dissolving, partly, the absraction).

Still, this part of the discussion isn't exactly about Marines vs Titans.

Xisor

_________________
"Number 6 calls to you
The Cylon Detector beckons
Your girlfriend is a toaster"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:03 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:42 am
Posts: 253
Quote (Xisor @ 06 Feb. 2006 (00:40))
They can deal with one titan quite well. What about two, or three, or four? Without tailoring a list to accomodate, will you really be able to suitably work this?

Can any list deal with multiple titans?  There seems to be a lot of discussion on this very subject in the AMTL forum.  Many people are expressing doubts about whether the AMTL list can be balanced for the tournament environment.

_________________
-Ethan


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Firepower based Imperial Guard. Deathstrikes, Manticores, Leman Russ and Shadowswords + friends. Eldar can as well if you are a firepower rather than an assualt force.
THats kill.
Deal with is a bit different.
Siegemasters can deal with them because it takes so long to kill us all. Mobile armys that can hide can out manover them.

And so on. But the two above are the only guys that can go toe to toe (not literally as you get wasted in short order) due to range, movement style (eldar) and sheer firepower.
Indeed I have beaten Dystartes Titans with guard I think (I could be wrong though, it was a while ago).

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:19 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm
Posts: 1673
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Orks with lots of grots also have a fighting chance. Nothing negates a MW like a grot.

Also, soopagunz and Soopa-Zzap guns are common enough in a typical ork army that they can put some shooty-hurtin' on the big guys before CC is joined (or at the very least BM's).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:43 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:31 pm
Posts: 34
I think creating different weapons configurations for Marines is too small scale thing for Epic. The stats of Tacs, Assault Marines, Devastators and Terminators are supposed to represent, as said above, a usual mix of weapons.

Any new weapon configuration would require new unit and new models, different enough from all other infantry. It doesn't seem necessary. Epic isn't primarily infantry game.

On the other hand, Marines are too weak against warmachines. Additionally, Assault Marines are a bit weak and unfocused compared to other close combat units.  They seem to make sense only when transported in Thunderhawks, in other situations Bikes are usually better.

Here I would say that I always thought that warmachines should be vulnerable to Jump troops. The warmachines are powerful, but not very manouverable. Shoud they be boarded by even one infantryman, they could be easily destroyed.

Titans, and most other warmachines are gigantic, and it wouldn't be easy for an infantryman starting at the groundlevel to reach the hatches. But there is one exception - Jump Packs allow easily to reach hatches, command head of a Titan etc and board it.

I proposed some rules to represent this, but they weren't very good. Recently, M0thra at Specialist Games forum proposed giving them Lance ability to represent Melta Bombs. This would make them stronger against armour and warmachines, without making them too strong against other opponents. This seems to me to be a very good idea. t would also give Assault Marines a unique task on the battlefield, so that they are not so bland compared to other specialized close combat units.

I would proposed the following stat line for Assault Marines:

SPACE MARINE ASSAULT

Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Infantry 30cm 4+ 3+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Bolt Pistols (15cms) Small Arms ??
Chainswords (base contact) Assault weapon ??
Melta Bombs (base contact) Assault weapon, Lance
Notes: Jump Packs.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 133 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net