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What would you change?
Markconz	Post subject: What would you change? Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:20 pm
Purestrain Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm Posts: 7925 Location: New Zealand	Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 14 2005 June,19:07) Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 14 2005 June,14:45) - I'd also remove or change a lot of the overtly Christian references (Inquisition, sisterhoods of nuns, etc.) that the 40k background could work well without. - The bad guys, chaos, would be more space alien than demon. I quite like the way that the Eclesiarchy is yet another power-hungry influential body within Imperium- its full of checks and balances because the Space arines, Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, Ecclesiarchy, Adeptus Mechanicus and Inquisition all distrust one another (and that's without going into the factionalism with each of the factions such as Inquisition). The Dark Gothic ambience and political intrigue between supposedly loyal Imperial factions is one of the things that make the 40k setting stand out for me from being just another sci-fi setting. And it's great fun taking an Inquisitorial/Sisters force packed with flamers and meltas and chipping in with "Purge the Heretic" at regular intervals!! Cheers James I agree with James - if you remove all the western medieval religiousity and attitude, what 40k background is there left? It is the whole basis for it! The multitude of superstitious, religious factions within the Imperium is what makes it so fantastically different from most sci-fi settings, without it you may as well chooose any of a multitude of vanilla sci-fi settings as James says. The 'Dark Age of Technology' is crucial. In fact given the current exponential growth rates of technology (such as within my own neuroscience field) ?'a dark age of technology' or a 'stagnant age of technology' is also about the only realistic way to actually have sci-fi gaming that involves humans on the battlefield instead of highpowered robot drones! It's one of ridiculous things about star trek and similar sci-fi approaches - with the tech and scientific approach the setting has (eg replicators, transporters) people should be clinically immortal (at least). Once you can scan and replicate/teleport a neuron, death shouldn't be a problem anymore!. Back to 40k, I do agree that marine chapters should have hugely greater numbers ?- bring back the legions! Genestealer cults are very sci-fi and cool - your classic 'body snatchers' nightmare opposition, with monsters in the shadows ? ?Hopefully they will be back soon. ? I would of course change the fluff so that squats never existed rather than being wiped out by nids ? ?Geez can't people just count them as short overweight guardsmen and get over it!! As for space rats - what are you people thinking?! ? ? _________________ http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
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iblisdrax	Post subject: What would you change? Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:32 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:54 pm Posts: 3381 Location: First star to the right, and straight on till morning.	You guys are coming perilously close to attempting to apply logic to GW fluff again....BAD! The ONLY THING that has ever influenced GW fluff has been this question:  "Can we sell more minis with it?"  If the answer is yes, in it goes.  If the answer is no, out the door with it!  If the IG sales went into the tank for a sustained period, well, there would be alot of dead IG troopers in the fluff, and none in the stores.   my 2cents, iblisdrax _________________ "Have Leman Reuss, will travel" "Hallo. My name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my father prepare to die!"
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Xavi	Post subject: What would you change? Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:40 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:30 am Posts: 939 Location: University of Essex, Colchester, UK (soon to be Brighton, Sussex, UK)	The numbers are qite ok, actually. Yopu only need to multiply any reference to marine numbers by 100 or by 1000 and you get pretty OK numbers. Multiply the pre-heresy numbers by the same factor, so you get 2M-20M ultramarines, which really is a huge force: yo can believe that this could conquer whole sectors of the galaxy, not the tinny 25,000 of the actual fluff I have mixed feelings about the dark age of technology. Basically I would go for it, but with some small changes. Basically, the STC are fucked up, but the scientists of the imperium are not necessarily only replicating dudes but do research on new stuff as well (actually, this appears in the ACTUAL fluff thousands of times, with AM research stations and the like). The starting point of the investigations are faulty STCs and data stored in archives, oh yes, but they are investgating to improve their current stuff as well. And yes, the missiles being loaded with chains and manpower sucks. I would get rid of big parts of that as well. On religiosity, I would make it a huge part of the fluff as it is, but would make them less christian-based. My problem with it is the christian feeling of the universe, not that they are religious in the first place. I like the religiosit of the universe, since it has already pointed out that it sets the universe appart from star trek and the like. For space rats, a bunch of underground, filthy ambush kind of dudes. This is what we are thinking, I guess I would go for a more ninja aproach than for an horde of rats approach though. More clan eshin than vanilla skavens. We already have 2 horde armies, so no need for a third. But then, maybe those would be more catlike, rather than ratlike. A Bastet army? Damn, a big universe offers too many possibilities! Regards, Xavi _________________ Commanding legions forward while sitting in a nice armchair.
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Markconz	Post subject: What would you change? Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Purestrain Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm Posts: 7925 Location: New Zealand	Quote (iblisdrax @ 15 2005 June,12:32) You guys are coming perilously close to attempting to apply logic to GW fluff again....BAD! The ONLY THING that has ever influenced GW fluff has been this question: ?"Can we sell more minis with it?" ?If the answer is yes, in it goes. ?If the answer is no, out the door with it! ?If the IG sales went into the tank for a sustained period, well, there would be alot of dead IG troopers in the fluff, and none in the stores. ? my 2cents, iblisdrax Yah, but... The logic behind the fluff is what does the market want and like, ie us! I mean I have at least twenty dactylis models. But I agree with Jervis - it's a dead plucked chicken lying on its back throwing eggs - I don't mind if they ditch it in the next nid release, there are cooler monster concepts out there! _________________ http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
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primarch	Post subject: What would you change? Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:55 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Quote (dafrca @ 15 2005 June,01:41) Quote (primarch @ 14 2005 June,14:48) The Heresy Era organizations were a lot more realistic. SM legions of 50k+ would be a lot more beleiveable. So I could buy into 50,000 per chapter. THat would make sense to me. 1,000 just sounds so low. ? So I guess another thing for my list would be to return Chapter sizes to Pre-Heresy levels. dafrca Hi! The problem is the rational they used to reduce the sizes. All that was really needed is to withdrawl the ability to transport themselves. A chapter of 50k or 1k is still stranded if it has no transport. Reducing the size was unnecessary. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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Legion 4	Post subject: What would you change? Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:59 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	The size of an SM unit is relative. A Rgt is 1000 troops, if you deploy 3000, you have 3 Rgts. !  And more to the point, I won't be playing/deploying 1000 troops on the game board.  They may be on the flanks, in the rear, etc., etc.  We follow and dismiss G/W fluff liberally ...    As for more aliens ... Rats, Necrons, etc., I'm all for it !  I'd rather a few new armies with a dozen or so models, then another Tony C.-alternate-reality-Nazi-IG model !!!  WE don't need more re-done model types ... Small new armies may work ... or maybe more Chaos !  There's a novel idea Tony !     I'm making a small Pendraken Epic Lizardman force with their models of L/mem, Dino riders and Pred Aliens and maybe some dinos/lizards ... that should be enough.  You could do the same with Necrons, Hrudd, etc. Just a handful of models (8,10,12 + or -)each into the Epic mix.   Not 8 versions of a Leman Russ !   If Tony wants more IG, how about Tallarn and Elysian Infantry !?!!     You never can have too many Grunts !! _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Magnus	Post subject: What would you change? Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:22 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:30 pm Posts: 462	Oh my oh my. What would I change.... weeellll let's see: A) Ditch the idiotic "the Imperium is in a 10.000 years long technological dark age, they can't research anything new, and yet they still have FTL travel" base assumption. God, I hate this with a fiery passion. There's no chance in hell for a human society to stand still for 100 years, much less 10.000. Besides which..... ten thousands years of continual warfare in a fascist state, and zero advances in weapon technology? Yeah, right. B) Bring back the Star Childs, the Illuminati and the Senseis. Move the timeline forward. Make the Emperor a Warp God (not a Chaos one) currently blocked in a sort of stasis due to the Golden Throne, with the Illuminati a secret faction vying to turn it off and allow for his full reincarnation. Time to kick stupid chaos asses. C) Drop every race post-tyranid. And I wouldn't mind too much about the bugs either. I agree that we have now way too many races/variants, and this dilutes variation and character in the army lists. D) Keep the pseudo-catholic gothic thingie. Big part of the universe's character, IMHO. Then again, I was born and live in Rome, so maybe I have a soft spot for such imagery. This is just for a start. The post-heresy time period should be shortened to 50 years or so, just to allow for a little more realism (I can stand 50 years of immobilism... almost).
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dafrca	Post subject: What would you change? Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:41 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	Quote (Magnus @ 16 2005 June,06:22) C) Drop every race post-tyranid. And I wouldn't mind too much about the bugs either. Other then the Dark Eldar, and Tau, what other races are "post Bugs"? dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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dafrca	Post subject: What would you change? Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:43 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	Quote (Magnus @ 16 2005 June,06:22) I agree that we have now way too many races/variants, and this dilutes variation and character in the army lists. So do you want to see all the varient lists gone as well? Demon Hunters, Sisters of Battle, Feral Orks, White Scares, etc.   dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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Legion 4	Post subject: What would you change? Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:49 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	No, I'm in favor of more Races, 'Nids, Necron, Tau, Hrudd, etc. !   Viva La Difference !  An eclectic Galaxy of waring races !  It's one big unhappy group of killers !   I'm not a big fan of the religious stuff, but it does not get in the way, really ... _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Warmaster Nice

Post subject: What would you change? Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:40 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:15 pm Posts: 7948 Location: Denmark

So do you want to see all the varient lists gone as well? Demon Hunters, Sisters of Battle, Feral Orks, White Scares, etc.   I don't mind them per se. However I think that it is allready possible to build those armies with the generic lists. Whet I dislike about the "specific" nature of the variant lists is that they don't encourage people to think "out of the box" so to speak. I've all too often come across people who say something like: "Predators in a Guard army? You're nuts" or "No you can't have a Feral Ork Madboy Airship because it isn't in the list and thus doesn't exist." (Allright those are thought up examples but you get the picture. -rough guidelines for creating specific variants are cool but I think the 40k universe becomes poorer if people get the impression that a particular army can only contain certain units and look a particluar way. ) Other then the Dark Eldar, and Tau, what other races are "post Bugs"?

Necrons as a race -If you look though the obvious Necron/Chaos Android similarities

I think the point is, that it is unnecessary (lacking a better word) to have so many different races which can be tailored to do largely the same task. (Like Tau and IG both being really shooty but usuallly not very good in assaults.)
Basically (and I may very well be wrong mind you ) I'd like to see reall differences between the armies. If you like assaults go Chaos, if you like to shoot go IG etc.
The big question to me is: Why is another race necessary? Can the existing ones not get the job done? Excluding the obvious marketing advantages I don't think it is really beneficial to the background of the 40k universe to keep introducing new and constantly bigger threats to the Imperium.

Cheers!