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Epic charge-across-the-board armies
primarch	Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 10:33 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! Are Space wolves really close combat? Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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Markconz	Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 11:01 pm
Purestrain Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm Posts: 7925 Location: New Zealand	Space Wolves are very close combat these days... I have never liked the close assault orientated marine armies (BA, SW, BT, and Khorne) myself. Something I think is true in both epic and 40k is that close combat armies need lots of cover to work! My tyranids have died horribly in both epic and 40k on barren battlefields (The worst involved hundreds of epic nids trying to storm across a bridge over a Lava flow on a forge world in epic ). 40k specifies 25% of the table must be cover - though not what sort of cover unfortunately. I wish there were better rules for terrain layout in both epic and 40k. Epic40k had nice terrain tables for different worlds, though many thought they resulted in not enough terrain. There is a delicate balance between battlefields where there is too much and too little terrain IMO. One gives too much of an advantage to assault armies, the other to shooty armies. I always thought the big problem with the 'cityfight' 40k rules must be that some armies must not have a chance versus others - guard trying to survive against nids for instance. _________________ http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
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primarch	Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:44 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! I agree on your terrain analysis. Play on a barren field and ANY close combat army will be decimated. Play on a terrain packed with trees and mountains and you probably cant avoid losing to a close combat army either. Thats why I like random terrain placement rules. At least players can't plan ahead with terrain features they dont know before hand. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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Tas	Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:38 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am Posts: 7823 Location: Sydney, NSW	I have never thought that the rules accurately reflect the courage required to stand and face a chitting horde rushing at you intent on devouring you... _________________ Tas My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/ My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/ My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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primarch	Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:37 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! Morale rules are something highly abstracted in all GW games. In Heresy I used a DSII like morale system which would require such checks. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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Legion 4	Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:01 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Terrain is a critical factor in wargames (and the real thing !).  Mixed to Closed works for us.  We are looking at morale/leadership rules and SM1/SM2E40K all had weaknesses ... I'll be studying E:A more closely ... _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 5:14 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Hi Peter, Primarch: Morale rules are something highly abstracted in all GW games. In Heresy I used a DSII like morale system which would require such checks. And yet, I find that the DS-II system doesn't differentiate troop quality and morale status very well either... Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/

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dafrca	Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 5:29 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	I think the whole troop quality and morale staus in wargames can never be more then an abstract attempt to capture something we can not even explain now. How do you quantify Audy Murphy? How do you quantify the fact that a man will stay at his post one battle and run the next. I believe most wargames either ignore it or over focus on it. dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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Markconz	Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:29 pm
Purestrain Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm Posts: 7925 Location: New Zealand	Quote (Tas @ 30 2005 May,11:38) I have never thought that the rules accurately reflect the courage required to stand and face a chitting horde rushing at you intent on devouring you... Well historically, troops have often fought to the death - IF they have no option to surrender, and no route of escape.  That's why in "The Art of War' Sun Zu recommends always allowing an 'escape corridor' so that the fleeing troops may be massacred with little danger to your own troops. Certain death if you run (bugs go faster), versus a chance to live if you stay and fight... The 'fighting like a cornered rat' reaction applies to all animals I am aware of, including humans _________________ http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
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primarch	Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:59 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! True Maksim, it does not differentiate. I remember one debate with Kenneth Peters with whom I created the original game and my main beef with two separate stats is adding needless mechanics. I found that one unififed stat was just as good and created the right effect. Then again, DS-II is the only game I can remember at this scale for sci-fi that even attempts to address morale and unit quality. While not perfect, it's pretty good. Primarch. _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:21 am

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Hi Peter, Primarch: True Maksim, it does not differentiate. I remember one debate with Kenneth Peters with whom I created the original game and my main beef with two separate stats is adding needless mechanics. I found that one unififed stat was just as good and created the right effect. The two are related, but I do see troop quality and troop morale as two different things. E-A has troop quality ingrained into unit stats and uses BMs to indicate morale. Primarch: Then again, DS-II is the only game I can remember at this scale for sci-fi that even attempts to address morale and unit quality. While not perfect, it's pretty good.

It is laudable for a 6mm sci-fi game, but there are some wonderful morale and troop quality systems availible from microarmor, Napoleonic and ancients games...

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.