Woe be da Orkz! |
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Gandalf the Grey
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!  Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 4:39 am |
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I think that there have been quite a number of changes that have been made to the rules because of player feedback. Its not as if he isn't listening to comments, its just that he tends to listen to comments and requests based on gameplay analysis more than anything. |
Well, I've got 10 years of playing Epic in all of its editions, including about a dozen of EpicA, and I think EpicA is cheese. Alienating the older Epic players killed Epic 40k, and it will kill EpicA. ?If primarch is right about GW distancing themselves from it, this will be the last edition we will see them do unless they re-release a previous edition.
I also think focusing on Armageddon is a little late with the Eye of Terror campaign starting up, and rather than focusing on the fluff of a conflict that involved the Imperium and Orks, I think something more widespread would have been better, like a Epic Gothic or something. ?I am kind of tired of Armageddon now anyway. ?It's been around since what, the lame Armageddon board game? ?If you think about it, 40k shows little sign of slowing down with GW producing a constant supply of new minis and a new army every so often; we've got Lord of the Rings - Return of the King coming up in Dec.; and who else knows for the other games. ?EpicA would have to make a huge impact for it to compete with those games, and without the excitement from older players, who's going to jump start it? White Dwarf? I doubt it. ?It's really going to be word of mouth in hobby stores, and my personal experience in that got a lukewarm response.
And Jervis wants to make a table-top game for Flyers and a new ATIII? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I think he's lost his marbles. . . Lets just start over an re-release Space Marine. ? 
Peace out.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 6:39 am |
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Again, a lot of good discussion, here too. And I agree with a lot of it. But at the end of the day, we're going to buy the models we like and play the rules our gaming crew agrees on. And spend a lot of time talking about it on the web ! 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Tas
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 12:22 pm |
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Location: Sydney, NSW
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Lima 4,
I'm interested in your ORBAT comments. I too really like the modern military flavour of the IG and SM, and heartily applaud the retuirn to a Company card style organisation and ratio of coy:support:special units in EA and returning to 2ndEd times.
I dont think the new vers is too drastically or outlandinishly different to that one, save for the character cards (medics etc) and the lack of Titan Battlegroups.
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Tas
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 3:28 pm |
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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>> If even their staff cannot conjure up enthusiasm, do you really expect it from the gaming community in any amount that matters?
Actually, the store staff here has recently shown interest. I visit to catch up on news and such (I wonder if they've noticed I never buy anything), and I think most of them have come to know me as the Epic Guy.
This last time I asked about some details on the upcoming Rogue Trader Tournament here, and the salesguy asked about Epic. He recently got a second-hand army (still to be painted), and he said if I wanted to bring in painted forces, he'd throw down with me in the store.
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primarch
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 3:35 pm |
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Hi!
Gandalf, I beleive it was WD 211, but I may be wrong, here is an index link so you can go through it if you have those issues (I stoped buying WD around 191, this particular editorial was shown to me at a hobby shop).
http://members.visi.net/~templar/WD/EPIC.html
The jist of the editorial was basically a plea/rant from Robin Dews on how good the system was and that people should give it a chance, or basically "WA,WA,WA, this game is cool please play it". It really didn't go into detail on WHY it was better or why should people use that version over the previous one. It was already obvious by this time that the game had flopped, so it was viewed as a desparate (and rather pathetic) move. If you happen to get your hands on it let me know so as to get a copy.
You have pretty much mentioned all the points in my usual mantra regarding epic A likely failure. IMO the most important of these are some few mention:
1. GW AUS, the aussies will ONLY be seeing this game through overseas orders, GW AUS will not be distributing this game. Isn't that nice? What sort of message is this sending? If it is a GW product then all branches should sell it. Obviously GW AUS doesn't have much confidence in it.
2. Retail support, with GW's new move to eliminate internet sales most fanatic games will be available from a GW source at full retail, competeing with more successful GW lines. If you dont want to pay full retail or are not close to a GW store your options become somewhat restricted.
3. Actually GW support in WD and other GW media campaign media (newsletters/magazines). Does anyone think it odd that they eliminated epic's only magazine in preparation for the new game? Since when does effective advertisement include REDUCING exposure of a product? How will interest be kindled in the new players GW wishes to attract if no advertisements that reach them are available? Newsletters and such only reach those involved in the epic scene already and do little to grasp peoples attention. Awaiting to release a game to then promote it is a poor marketing strategy.
I'm sure others can point out a million other things.
Primarch
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 4:27 pm |
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Tas, got your e-mail, as soon as we get a "publishable" copy of our hybrid system, I'll let you know. Primarch wanted one, too. ?But much of it is SM1 + some SM2 and even a little E40K and Dirtside, mixed in. We are looking at using the E-A combat results system with some modifications. ?And we are looking at leader loss morale from SM1 and BM from E40k for consolidated Morale rules, aircraft Rearm and Refit rules as well, plus a few other odd bitz and pieces, like modifying and adding E-A AAA/Flak rules. ?The big problem is getting the time, as I mentioned on another post, the older I get, the less time I/we have to get things done.  ?I'll live in Ohio and that's on the other side of the country but Signius and Max live in Calfornia, so they are at least out that way. ?We like the SM1 Templates as I said and most of our unit/armies are organized that way, but we use some of the SM2 cards too. ?Our Traitor SMs use the SM2 cards with modified points costs, for example. ?And we have separate Medic, Commissar, Tech, Mad Doc, etc., ?stands attached to our units as in SM2. ?It's a eclectic mix but works and we change it as we see fit and are not afraid to experiment. ? I'm leaving shortly to have chow with my gaming buddy so, you all know what the main topic of discussion will be. ?
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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stormseer
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 5:36 pm |
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Gandalf, I beleive it was WD 211, The jist of the editorial was basically a plea/rant from Robin Dews on how good the system was and that people should give it a chance, or basically "WA,WA,WA, this game is cool please play it". |
This was in UK WD #217, and after digging that issue out and re-reading it, I think that, while it does have something of the ""this game is cool please play it". "-nss, he does have some reasonable points to make- the dynamism of the game and speed of resolution compared to SM/TL, as well as blast makers.
On the other hand, he does seem to disregard the SM system completly- it does have many good points after all, none of which are touched upon in his rant. 
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pixelgeek
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 6:18 pm |
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| Quote (primarch @ 07 2003 May,07:35) | | GW AUS, the aussies will ONLY be seeing this game through overseas orders, GW AUS will not be distributing this game. Isn't that nice? What sort of message is this sending? |
GW Aus also doesn't appear to like Warmaster very much either as I have heard horror stories about the lack of support for that game in Australia.
I think that GW Aus just wants to stock 40K and WFB and ignore the Fanatic games.
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stormseer
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 7:58 pm |
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GW Aus seems to have a very poor attitude towards virtually all of Fanatic's Games- there seem to be complaints about them regarding BFG on the Yahoo list quite a bit....
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primarch
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:30 pm |
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Hi!
I agree with both, GW AUS seems to be into the attitude of "if it ain't warhammer or 40k dont bother me".
What I dont understand is if they are all the same company, how can one branch decide to shaft a game that has not come out? I mean its like Microsofts overseas divisions refusing to sell windows XP, its very odd.
Thanks for the exact WD issue stormseer, I'll remember it. Is there any way I can get a scanned copy of it? I remember he got ripped quite a bit online after that WD piece......
But seriously though, has anyone heard ANY GW bigwig being involved in epic A? Granted that not having Gavin involved is definately a blessing, but Chambers wasn't too bad (perhaps not too good either but thats another topic). When we describe this as being "jervis's baby" we're not kidding, it seems he's pretty alone on this one. That sucks, can't GW have the decency to fully support one of its better game designers?
You gotta feel for the guy, there is only so much he can do alone.
Primarch
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pixelgeek
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:43 pm |
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| Quote (primarch @ 07 2003 May,12:30) | | What I dont understand is if they are all the same company |
They are an independent company. As is GW Canada and GW US.
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Tas
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 11:26 pm |
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| Quote (pixelgeek @ 08 2003 May,03:18) | | Quote (primarch @ 07 2003 May,07:35) | | GW AUS, the aussies will ONLY be seeing this game through overseas orders, GW AUS will not be distributing this game. Isn't that nice? What sort of message is this sending? |
GW Aus also doesn't appear to like Warmaster very much either as I have heard horror stories about the lack of support for that game in Australia.
I think that GW Aus just wants to stock 40K and WFB and ignore the Fanatic games. |
I can tell you from bitter personal experience in 3 different Sydney stores, that their policy is that you cant join their group unless you have a substantial 40k, WFB or LOTR army. The only other game they stock is Mordeheim as apparently it seels well here.
Now I understand they are a buisness as we've been discussing here and in other threads, but when you are told you arent welcome to play epic int he store as nobody is interested in it, I get a bit shirty. Its not like I'm not playing a GW product.
GW Aus, like all the others, is a linked but independant company. They have already stated that apart form the 4 games listed above, they will not import the stock into the country, not even for Mail Order sales.
That means for us Aussies playing BFG, Epic, Warmaster or anything else besides, you have to order from overseas, pay extra for shipping and wiat upto 3 months.
I dont want to sound like a whinging old bloke, but its my hobby too and my money along the way is as good as anybody elses.
I will support EA when it comes out and I have enjoyed playtesting it- it has revived an old game for me and brought back some great memories. As we have seen more plastics are coming as well. But unless GW Aus changes its mind, my purchases and support in stores will be far less than I would wish, if only because this hobby will become even more uneconomical.
And we wouldn't want Kitty to starve would we L4? 
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Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 11:53 pm |
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Wow. Telling you not to show up, even though you plan to play GW is pretty crappy. I guess if they aren't going to stock it, it's a waste of time and space for them, though.
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Neal
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pixelgeek
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 12:16 am |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 07 2003 May,15:53) | | I guess if they aren't going to stock it, it's a waste of time and space for them, though. |
Sure is but it makes you wonder why they won't even try the game out?
Maybe shipping to Australia is enough of a pain in the ass that it isn't worht the risk to try out other games?
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primarch
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Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 1:22 am |
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Hi!
The sad truth is that while GW AUS takes this attitude to ridiculous levels, I have seen it in GW stores in the US too. I have gotten from blank stares, to the condescending "oh, we dont carry that" from them. Its really hard for me to understand how a company can permit its stores (or in the sace of GW AUS its management) to have such a blatant negative attitude towards ONE OF ITS OWN GAMES. We're not talking about a competitor, but a game made from the designers that make all the other games they sell. Mind boggling.
Its very important for a companies stores and employees to give a positive attitude and enthusiasm for its products. How do you expect a game to sell when the company employees tell you they dont play or want it in their store?
GW is GW's worst enemy.
Primarch
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