Board index » Science Fiction Army Scale Wargames » Epic Armageddon

• Board index
• Search
• Register

Top

Legion 4	Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:58 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Neal & Max, I can't see your posts ?  I can only read your quotes and Emoticons ?  This has happened before.  What's up ?   _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Top

MaksimSmelchak	Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:11 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA	Ralph, I think that you can't read the posts because you use Web-TV. They seem to work fine for me on every PC I've used. You might want to break down and get a PC. Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/

Top

Legion 4	Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:56 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Point taken, Max. Thanks   _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Top

nealhunt	Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:56 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Maksim:  Sorry this is long. >> Ork Stompas are now better at CC, but they lack in almost every other area compared to earlier versions. They have Reinforced Armor now.  I know they didn't in the 10.0 list, but I can't remember if they did in the earlier lists.  I'll take the trade. >> 0-1 limits make it difficult to really maximize possible Ork advantages with special weapons. I can see your point, but with the ability to add Oddboyz to every single formation, I don't think I agree.  I have a Bad Moon army, and I have organized it so the Weirdboy tower (I field them in every mob) now has an Oddboy giving it a supazap gun. I haven't tried it out against a titan-having force yet, so I might be wrong, but I think it will be effective.  Everything in the ork army has good AT to strip shields, leaving those 3+TKd3 Supazap guns to peel apart titans.  Larger titans might be a problem, but scouts, or even reaver-level titans should be easy. >> The additional limited of weapons choices such as on the BFs (Battle Fortresses were able to carry a Supagun option at one time) really makes BFs less attractive. I no longer see them as much of a competitive unit... I agree.  The Oddboyz upgrade for BFs is way out of line.  I am hoping it will be changed to 50 points and replace just the the Big gunz (or evne one big gun, like on the gunwagon).  I think they are still competitive without the upgrade.  Overall, I'd say the Battlewagon is the weakest tank/transport for the orks. >> I now see that the only way for Ork players to be competitive is to bring huge KoS (Kult of Speed) units and mob the enemy In my last fight (against SMs without titans), lots of stuff worked.  The Big Gunz mob unleashed havoc, placing BMs wherever I wanted (garrisoned in a good position near midboard, and big enough to consistently rally).  The warband moved in a big arc around the gunzmob, and between size and the BMs from the gunz, swept formation after formation off the board.  The Stompa mob got burned by some terminators with truly insane dice rolls, but that happens from time to time.  My Kult of Speed did more to distract my opponent and snag objectives than actual combat damage. >> I don't see that maneauver has too much value for Orks anymore. Between mounting up, counter-charges, and follow-up moves after CC, I found them to be very mobile, even after they dismounted.  I even charged a stompa mob through a bunch of woods, and let me tell you, -1 to be hit for cover, plus reinforced armor makes for a VERY durable unit - at least until 3 terminator stands shrug off 3 MW hits and 4 regular hits in a firefight, then roll a 6 for the resolution... >> They have to win the fight in the ensueing CC and hope to survive the enemy's long range firepower furing the rush (sort of like the Orks in BFG). Well... yeah, I guess so.  Luckily, those nobz now blow off BMs left and right.  With the supreme commander re-rolls, I never had a critical initiative roll fail. >> Gargants seem to be marginalized. Agreed.  They are undergunned, but there are some small advantages.  First, you're going to have a supreme commander gargant, so you get an extra MW assault and an invulnerability save.  Second, they have lots of DC, so they are very good in assaults and very hard to suppress.  Third, combining those two, your gargant can use Command ability and charge along with a mob or two.  Nothing is going to stand up to that. >> How are you using Gargants? Sparingly.   >> Why is the Stompa mob an illegal garrison now? It's not, unless it has a Supastompa.  War engines cannot garrison unless they have a speed of 0. Anyway, none of this is to negate your complaints.  I just hope to mitigate your concerns somewhat.  And w/ respect to airpower, I haven't played a game with the new rules yet, so I can't really comment.  Number crunching off the army list stats seems to look okay, but that's not really a good indication. If we were nearby, I'd love to play. _________________ Neal
Top

MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:17 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Neal, Thanks for all of your replies. I really appreciate them. They go a long way towards placating this old dog!   Anyway, none of this is to negate your complaints.  I just hope to mitigate your concerns somewhat.  And w/ respect to airpower, I haven't played a game with the new rules yet, so I can't really comment.  Number crunching off the army list stats seems to look okay, but that's not really a good indication. If we were nearby, I'd love to play. - Neal. I think that the Orks can win, just not that they're very competitive any more. I think they'll lose to any determined and experienced IG and possibly SM player with the new rules. The 0-1 limitations the worst for restricting units. It really takes the edge off making innovative units and encourages extra formations. The old "buy two to get one" was much better. The biggest pieces tend to sacrifice the most for upgrades like the BattleFortresses. I had that problem in BFG. I kept rolling up the Exterminatus mission with my Waaa-Fleet, and the only Ork piece capable of withstanding a pass by other forces is the Hulk. Unfortunately, my opponent wouldn't agree to let me replace one weapon sytem on the front INSTEAD of ALL of them. I can see now that I should have done it. The Hulk is the only thing that stands a chance of making an Exterminatus run for the Orks. Everything else will be shot down by reinforcements making a run from the side and getting their free shot (can always target the Exterminatus). I also proposed that Gargants should be able to trade out their shoulder Big Gunz for an AAA mount, but noone went for it. I think the flexibility of having AAA built into a Gargant is very useful. Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/

Top

Legion 4	Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:24 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Neal, I had my buddy download your post, that my simple system could not read, as I said before. I like the SM1 system, and some of the SM2 system better than E40K and E-A, for templating organizations for a number of reasons. The SM & IG are based on real military TO&Es, and with my background, that appeals to me. The other Epic forces' TO&Es are designed in a similar style and they are Alien, yet fit in well with each other. ?And like I said we've been using them for many years now and they work well for us. ?Of course for my Epic TAU & Kroot, I'll have to use the E40K and E-A method (when it's released) to organize those, and "meld" them with our SM1/SM2 hybrid rules. ?But like I said, use what works for you, regardless of what, I think ... _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Top

pixelgeek	Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:39 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 15 2003 April,08:17) I think that the Orks can win, just not that they're very competitive any more. I've been playing Orks the last little while to do some testing on some scenarios and despite my a)lack of experience with them and b) general dislike of horde armies I've done quite well with them. Even got to inflict some very nasty damage with them at a few points. The last game was a lot more competitive and I really don't know the Orks very well. So I think that they are indeed very competitive and can be quite the force in the new rules. _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
Top

MaksimSmelchak	Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:00 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA	PG, I'm glad that they're working for you, but against an experienced IG or SM player you'll most likely have less luck. Orks are predictable in current form and after a few games, the IG and SM players should know how to relatively easily counter Orks. The current E-A reminds me too much of what I didn't like about Epic-40k. All power to you, though, if they're working for you. Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/
Top

Legion 4	Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:56 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	One thing I can also see, is the Ork's initiative.  I don't like the rule in general, and would not use it.  I've played with rules like that in historical games and there it has it's place. But sometimes the G/W "fluff" makes some armies less than playable.  But it's a matter of taste, so as I always say, do what works for you... _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Top

pixelgeek	Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 6:06 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 04 2003 May,21:00) but against an experienced IG or SM player you'll most likely have less luck. My opponent knows his stuff. :-) I have the scares to prove it :-) I was thinking though that if I could be moderately successful then an experienced player might be able to do some more damage. Curious to know what you mean by the Orks being predictable? Feel free to toss me a thread URL if you've gone down that road before. _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
Top

nealhunt	Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 8:30 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Legion4:  It's really not bad.  Generally, you want to double move or assault if you're the orks anyway.  When you don't want to, all ork armies get a supreme commander, so you get re-rolls on those important initiative rolls. I really think it's fine. _________________ Neal
Top

Legion 4	Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 5:41 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Well as I said use what works for you, I just see, based on past games, other ways to make Orks ... more Orky. This rule appears to reflect the Ork's limited command & control capabilities, it's one way to do it ... so go for it ... _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Top

Gandalf the Grey

Post subject: Couple Of Imperial Guard Questions Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 5:19 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm Posts: 789 Location: Tampa, Florida

Man, I wish I found this thread sooner! Sorry guys, still a little new here. ?I am surprised by many of your comments because I have seen your names in the Playtesting Forum, but I felt like I was the only guy with major complaints. ?I guess it is good to see I am not insane.   The sad part is that at least a few of those posters are adolescents with lots of time to write E-mails. It doesn't bother me that those people are adolescents, per se, but I don't like to think that someone not of the "rank and file" has meant more than us "die-hards." Agree - 'new blood' has more influence. This is something which I have also noticed.

I have to admit that this really pisses me off since I think all of us in here probably know Epic better than Jervis does. ?Yes, he sees it from a player's point of view, but twisted in his Game Designer's eyes. ?We've all been playing each form of Epic for a long time now, and I really wish I was involved in NetEpic as I think I would have much more in common with you guys than I do with Jervis's ideas. ?Jervis and I have gone at it a couple of times, which doesn't bother me as I am pretty opinionated with will fight with anyone, but to blow my reasoning off after playing Epic so long blows my mind. ?I think of EpicA as one of Jervis's expirements. ?It's like his way of testing his therotical approach to war. ?I am really thankful for Jervis making some of my favorite games of all time, but I don't think he's really listened to us about this version, which I think in the beginning we were all really excited about.

I think Legion 4 (who's comments have won much of my respect) said what I think is the best way to explain EpicA

G/W rules have a predilection for 18th century sword and bayonet fighting. ?Their rules for indirect fire and CAS are like an after thought.

Exactly. ?You'd think after the war in Iraq a few weeks ago could have influenced the game, yet we are still seem to be designing a game influenced by (very intelligent mind you) authors expert in warfare during WWII and earlier. ?That is why I get so angry at not being able to split fire. ?I feel like my formation is in a square, waiting for the captain to give the order to fire. . . "Company, prepare to fire. . ."

Actually, I've got another one too: Well let's look at Epic and E-A. Epic is a Tactical game, one model = 1 vehicle or a 5 man fire team. ?Let's look at the detail Jervis tried to put in E-A. He says based on his readings of Keegan and Marshal, he developed the "Fire Fight" rules, basically most Infantry battles take place at 300 meters of less. ?The Burst Marker concept, an attempt at the replicating the affects of Suppressive Fire. ?The Cross Fire rule, how flanking fire works on the tactical battlefield. ?So what does any tactical commander always look for - Cover & Concealment. Cover makes a target harder to hit because he's behind something that stop projectiles, like a wall. ?Concealment - it won't stop fire, but he can't hit what he can't see, like hiding in the jungle foliage. ?So does
Hull Down and vehicle cover come into a tactical game - I'd say Yes. ?Not to sound pompus, but Jervis read about tactical warfare. ?I did it as an Infantry Officer trained in both Light and Mech Infantry from '79-'90 in various environments - jungle, winter, desert, urban, etc., etc. So we play cover rules for AFVs, it's a simple fix. ?And I'd also say read Keegan, Marshal, Rommel, etc. ?But that's just my opinion, you should play whatever rules you want, I'm not going to tell the =][= ...

I know whis is available in another thread, but I wanted to be sure everyone reads it. ?It kind of sums up how I feel when Jerivs quotes history to prove one point, then ignores it when making the point that something makes it better game (actually, say skillful and it'll really piss me off).

Sorry if I sound bitter, I am not trying to. ?   I really like Jervis and have had a blast playing many of his games. ?I really feel like most veteran players prefer 40k 2nd ed of the 3rd and AT/SM or SM/TL over Epic 40k. ?I do think Epic40k is a pretty cool game for veteran players, but definately not for newbies. ?I just feel like the games are losing character over time in this attempt be more 'elegant', which makes me laugh. ?I hate the use of that word. ?A beautiful woman is elegant, not a freakin wargame.

I think Epic A will be hot for a short time as newbies get interested in it, and are blown away by the new models, but I am sure it will die off. ?I expect the new Epic Mag to suck, as they all have (Firepower was great). I can't see us older players getting into it, and new players seem really fickle in my experience. ?Too much competition from Xbox and Tony Hawk. ?Hell, when Doom III and Halo 2 comes out, I sure as hell won't be playing Epic or 40k.

See ya.