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Legion 4
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Post subject: Eldar List  Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 6:52 am |
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Thanks Pixzel, I can read it now, weird how that happens  . Yes, Gandalf, you and I see it as more of a tactical game at almost it's lowest level. I think Jervis was trying to keep things "simple" to a point, so he chose to ignore or simply just left things out. I command a Mech Co. attached to a Tank Bn. much of the time and we spent a lot of time staying under cover, for obvious reasons. In SM1, if you fired at a unit under cover, the roll to hit got a -1. Simple, made sense ... it worked. Troops and vehicles move from cover to cover and try not to stay out in the open too long. Just like your point about dividing fire and Pixzel's about macro vs. mirco, there's a point where the two are at odds with each other. And as I said I have to go with my previous experiences on the gaming tables and in the field as a Grunt... 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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pixelgeek
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Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 7:12 am |
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| Quote (Legion 4 @ 04 2003 May,22:21) | | I've been trained to use Anti-tank weapons and have looked down the site at targets, the less I can see of him the harder it is to hit. |
Guess it depends on what you're firing :-)
I'm assuming that a DU round or a APFSDS round would punch through most cover but any sort of guided system like a TOW or Dragon would suffer from cover.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 3:58 pm |
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Yes, that is somewhat true. But remember not only does hard cover ,like a wall, stop or deflect the hit of some rounds - Shot, HEAT, HEP, etc., but concealment, like thick vegetation, won't stop a round, but you can't hit what you can't see. ?So by having a general rule for cover and concealment, it "covers"  , both contingencies. A well concealed vehicle, won't be visible until you're almost on top of it, sometimes. ?I know, it happened, in my experiences of the past. ?Again, I think it's up to you & your gaming crew, what rules to use. In SM2 they had a rule that a flank shot was a -1 to the save and a -2 to the rear. ?A pretty reasonable rule, but with a d6 system, sometimes too many modifiers, become ungainly. ?So again, use what works for you. ?
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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pixelgeek
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Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 6:08 pm |
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A well concealed vehicle, won't be visible until you're almost on top of it, sometimes. ?I know, it happened, in my experiences of the past. |
As I mentioned to Gandalf, maybe someone needs to bring this up on the EpicA messageboard. Are you on it?
In SM2 they had a rule that a flank shot was a -1 to the save and a -2 to the rear. |
EpicA has the Crossfire rule that gives a -1 to hit on fire in similar circumstance.
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Gandalf the Grey
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Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 6:08 pm |
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Well based on my experiences, with previous games and real armored vehicles, it seems "unrealistic" to me. Cover provides additional survivability. |
This is the one thing that really annoys me in 40k. If I have a Space Marine firing at a Dark Eldar in cover, there is no modification to my hit roll, and all it does is garantee that the Dark Eldar gets an unmodified save. This has to to with affecting aim, not jumping ahead to damage. There is no -1 to hit (although some claim there is, but you won't find it in the rulebook). I guess I should be happy that I can roll a 5 or 6 to save the Dark Eldar, as opposed to a Marine going from a 3+ to hit to a 4+, but it is just a weird rule.
I think Jervis is making EpicA a little abstract, which means you are alienating a sizable group of players that want to play the game as they see it on the table, and not imagine that there are 'things' going on.
Remember Firefights in Epic40k and how units didn't need LOS to fire? I hated the rule. Even if units could move during the phase, their actual position in the game didn't change, so they could still advance from their position. I know there is a lot going on in a firefight, but in terms of positioning in the game, I could do without the rule. The more abstract, the less important things are on the board, but that is what everyone is looking at, not imagining what is going on in their heads.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 5:13 am |
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And Gandalf, there's a lot of reasons I don't play 40K and you just mentioned some of them. ?The rules are a bit ... well, they don't just work for me. ?And I still think some of the E40K and E-A Fire Fight rules need a little fine tuning but again, are moving in the right direction ?Close Combat rarely came into play in our Epic games. We understood the concepts of Fire and Movement, and Maneuver Warfare. ?G/W rules have a predilection for 18th century sword and bayonet fighting. ?Their rules for indirect fire and CAS are like an after thought. ?SM1 came close to getting that right, amazingly, we still use?modified rules based on those. ?So as I said, use what works for you and don't be afraid to experiment. ?I don't mean to be critical, it's just my opinion ...
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Tas
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Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 6:14 am |
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>We understood the concepts of Fire and Movement, and >Maneuver Warfare. G/W rules have a predilection for 18th >century sword and bayonet fighting
I totally agree and have a similar opinion. I guess thats the difference between a game and a simulation. I think EA is a nice balance between the 2. If I want ultimate realism, I'll go for something different.
And in the end, how can you possibly simulate what things will be like in another 38,000 years... 
>I don't mean to be critical, it's just my opinion ...
thats how things get improved. If you are in the hobby, your opinion counts, even if its just as a consumer. As a former infantry officer, your credibility speaks volumes
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Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
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Tas
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Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 6:23 am |
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>We understood the concepts of Fire and Movement, and >Maneuver Warfare. G/W rules have a predilection for 18th >century sword and bayonet fighting
I totally agree and have a similar opinion. I guess thats the difference between a game and a simulation. I think EA is a nice balance between the 2. If I want ultimate realism, I'll go for something different.
And in the end, how can you possibly simulate what things will be like in another 38,000 years...
>I don't mean to be critical, it's just my opinion ...
thats how things get improved. If you are in the hobby, your opinion counts, even if its just as a consumer. As a former infantry officer, your credibility speaks volumes
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Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 6:40 am |
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Thanks Tas, I don't want to offend anyone, but like I said I base some of my comments on my past experiences, and you were an Infantry officer too, so you may have similar incites. We base our hybrid rules on a melding of Sci-fi and reality, which sometimes is hard to do. But certain things should remain constant, whether Orks or the IJA are doing it. And I think Epic has a strong WWII feel, with Sci-fi thrown into the mix. So mounting & dismounting vehicles, infantry and vehicle movements, airstrikes, artillery, etc., etc., would be similar, regardless of what force is doing it, Nazis or Eldar ... So I hope my comments are contructive and maybe someone might think they could use them to improve how they play the game. So thanks again, Tas, and in the end everybody plays the game with rules that work for them.
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Gandalf the Grey
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Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 3:04 pm |
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Don't worry about offending anyone Legion, what must be said must be said. Unfortunately, Jervis has never served in combat, although he has designed a lot of games, and I think is set in his ways on what makes a more skillful game. I think the more choices a player can make opens the possibilities to make the game far more interesting than to limit him.
You are right about the G/W rules having a predilection for 18th century sword and bayonet fighting. I have never heard even the biggest 40k fan say they love the rules. In the end, the players love the minis and will play with whatever rules GW publishes, just like you have your hardcore Epic Fans. People just love playing in this scale, and I am one of them. I guess I'll play EpicA if another player wants too, but I'll be honest, there has to be a reason why I still realy hold on to my original Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus set. I really believe that if morale had been done a little differently, lets say, like it was in SM/TL, then I would think it is the best game of all time.
Which reminds me. I know GW never published extended rules for the Eldar covering the aspect warriors they released in the Warhost Box Set, and was wondering if there had been any attempt by players to make their own? Anyone know?
Oh sh*t, I am late for work!
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 4:40 pm |
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I agree with you on all your points Gandalf, ?the minis sell the games, not the other way around. I still feel SM1/AT1 was my favorite set of rules, although it needed some fine tuning. So many of our "hybrid" rules are based on those. ?We still use the Organization Templates (TO&Es) for most armies. ?Jervis did (and does) his homework, but there is an obvious difference from reading about it and doing it. ?Many times he & G/W design rules to my liking.?So again I don't mean to be too critical. ?However besides the scale of Epic appeals to me a lot more then 40K, the rules for 40K are not what I look for in Wargame. ? Close Combat is deadlier than automatic weapons fire ? ?I don't think so, not even in the year 40,0000  !!! ? As far as the Eldar Aspects, we use a lot of the SM2 rules with some modifications and I believe NetEpic has some rules for those too. ? Thanks Gandalf, I'm glad I'm not too far off in my comments. ?I don't want to be labeled a Heretic ! ?
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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