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Eldar List
Legion 4	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 10:20 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	All armored vehicles can get cover bonuses as in SM1, SM2 & E40K, you can put them behind low cover, so only the turret is exposed, this called "hull down", and the main weapon can still fire.  That's an old rule used in many games not just earlier versions of Epic.  Infantry can take cover where many AFVs can't. Like rubble, buildings, etc.  If you don't use the cover rules, you're short changing your vehicles. That's the way it works in most games and in the real world.  Infantry and tanks spend a lot of time trying to stay under cover to avoid being a statistic ... if you know what I mean ...   _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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pixelgeek	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 11:12 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (Legion 4 @ 04 2003 May,14:20) All armored vehicles can get cover bonuses as in SM1, SM2 & E40K, But since this is the EpicA section of the boards that probably isn't all that useful :-) You can't get a cover bonus for a vehicle, in EpicA,  in anything other than fortifications. So they tend to get "blowed up good" an awful lot more then in the other games in the series (I would expect). _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
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Tas	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 11:45 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am Posts: 7823 Location: Sydney, NSW	All very true, especially the bit about having "spares" after the first bout of incoming fire!, but if you spread them out into 4 vehicles, then each vehicle loss reduces the total loss to your force and only 1 HW stand.  The other issue is that you are increasing the overall size of your force so it will take more BMs to break you. _________________ Tas My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/ My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/ My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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Legion 4	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 11:50 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	I read the rules, too, but it seems to me, that might but something they missed, because like much of the E-A rules, they were still under construction.  Either way that might be something to consider.  As I have said before, that's why we play a Hybrid rule system, somethings were covered better than others. Based on my experience that is a critical rule omission.  But play what works for you ... _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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pixelgeek	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 12:36 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (Tas @ 04 2003 May,15:45) The other issue is that you are increasing the overall size of your force so it will take more BMs to break you. I'd rather increase the size of the formation by taking a Leman Russ platoon :-) This happened in a game last week and the Guard formations were damn tough. _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
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pixelgeek	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 12:38 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (Legion 4 @ 04 2003 May,15:50) I read the rules, too, but it seems to me, that might but something they missed Hull down positions are, I think, all that common. Unless you have an elevation difference on your opponent or are in prepared positions. The fortification rule handles prepared positions and since none of the Epic games ahve, AFAIK, dealt with elevation it seems odd that they'd have hull down rules. Hull down also seems to be a bit outside the scope of the Epic system doesn't it? _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
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Legion 4	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 3:45 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Well let's look at Epic and E-A. Epic is a Tactical game, one model = 1 vehicle or a 5 man fire team. ?Let's look at the detail Jervis tried to put in E-A. He says based on his readings of Keegan and Marshal, he developed the "Fire Fight" rules, basically most Infantry battles take place at 300 meters of less. ?The Burst Marker concept, an attempt at replicating the affects of Suppressive Fire. ?The Cross Fire rule, how flanking fire works on the tactical battlefield. ?So what does any tactical commander always look for - Cover & Concealment. Cover makes a target harder to hit because he's behind something that stop projectiles, like a wall. ?Concealment - it won't stop fire, but he can't hit what he can't see, like hiding in the jungle foliage. ?So does Hull Down and vehicle cover come into a tactical game - I'd say Yes. ?Not to sound pompus, but Jervis read about tactical warfare. ?I did it as an Infantry Officer trained in both Light and Mech Infantry from '79-'90 in various environments - jungle, winter, desert, urban, etc., etc. So we play cover rules for AFVs, it's a simple fix. ?And I'd also say read Keegan, Marshal, Rommel, etc. ?But that's just my opinion, you should play whatever rules you want, I'm not going to tell the =][= ... _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Tas	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 3:57 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am Posts: 7823 Location: Sydney, NSW	Quote (pixelgeek @ 05 2003 May,09:36) Quote (Tas @ 04 2003 May,15:45) The other issue is that you are increasing the overall size of your force so it will take more BMs to break you. I'd rather increase the size of the formation by taking a Leman Russ platoon :-) This happened in a game last week and the Guard formations were damn tough. Ah yes...so would I! But here you can add on 2 vehicles for minimal cost without expending an upgrade option I read of your tale of Woe on the playtester site PG! _________________ Tas My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/ My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/ My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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pixelgeek	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:35 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (Tas @ 04 2003 May,19:57) But here you can add on 2 vehicles for minimal cost without expending an upgrade option I can see that approach. It is cheaper but aside from transport (which you don't need) it adds less firepower than a tank You can also do both :-) I just think that the Chimera is going to be killed easier meaning that you're just adding more possible BMs to the formation whereas a Leman Russ is going to survive a heck of a lot longer. That said, you can't beat having even more units in the formation if it keeps the formation unbroken for an extra turn. _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
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pixelgeek	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:37 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (Legion 4 @ 04 2003 May,19:45) So we play cover rules for AFVs, it's a simple fix. The main reason why I think cover for vehicles is out of the scope of the game is that you typically don't target individual units (despite some whinging about War Engines) but the formation. So in this sense the idea of taking the differing elevations of a vehicle and the unit firing on it is a bit too micro-scale where the game is very macro-scale. _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
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Gandalf the Grey

Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:52 am

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm Posts: 789 Location: Tampa, Florida

Well let's look at Epic and E-A. Epic is a Tactical game, one model = 1 vehicle or a 5 man fire team.  Let's look at the detail Jervis tried to put in E-A. He says based on his readings of Keegan and Marshal, he developed the "Fire Fight" rules, basically most Infantry battles take place at 300 meters of less.  The Burst Marker concept, an attempt at the replicating the affects of Suppressive Fire.  The Cross Fire rule, how flanking fire works on the tactical battlefield.  So what does any tactical commander always look for - Cover & Concealment. Cover makes a target harder to hit because he's behind something that stop projectiles, like a wall.  Concealment - it won't stop fire, but he can't hit what he can't see, like hiding in the jungle foliage.  So does Hull Down and vehicle cover come into a tactical game - I'd say Yes. Well said Legion, very well said.  So long as a single Leman Russ mini represents a single Leman Russ tank, much of what Jervis is trying to do and get us to ignore just isn't going to happen.  If a Leman Russ represented, lets say, 5 Leman Russes, then I could see us ignoring cover and what not.  So long as I move one mini at a time, and are concerned where it is on the battlefield as a unit, it is more a tactical game than a strategy game. I feel like sometimes Jervis is trying to make a 'Command and Conquer' game where you give a general order to a group of units and they go off and battle on their own.  Trying to simulate that using minis just doesn't work for me.  If Jervis can quote his favorite authors, point one out to me that stated that units couldn't fire at two seperate formations at once.  Actually, in doing so, that would mean the unit would be able to distinguish seperate formations in a body of mixed infantry and tanks, which is about as unlikely as you can get.   I think some sort of hull down rule should go into effect, just to give me more to think about as I am moving minis around the board. _________________ Please check out my website: http://www.system17.com

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Legion 4	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:43 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	I see your point about that Macro vs. Mirco.  But I'm not talking about elevation differences, I'm talking about an AFV behind a wall (like the ruin bit that comes on the base sprue) or something like that.  But your point about micro vs. macro is an interesting way to look at it, I never considered that.  But that would be another reason why I'm not "hot" on the whole E-A system.  I'd like to read Gandalf's reply, but it did not download for me. This has happened before. Pixzel, maybe you can "quote" it for me, the quotes seem to come thru ?  Good discussion guys, this is what the forum all about.   _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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pixelgeek	Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 6:10 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (Legion 4 @ 04 2003 May,21:43) But I'm not talking about elevation differences, I'm talking about an AFV behind a wall (like the ruin bit that comes on the base sprue) or something like that. Interesting point. Not sure how that would effect the game. I'm trying to think back to what I've read about tank combat and I can't really think of anything that is applicable. Typically the firing unit is either trying to hide behind the wall or get next to the wall to fire over it :-) _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
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pixelgeek

Post subject: Eldar List Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 6:18 am

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 04 2003 May,20:52) Well said Legion, very well said. ??If a Leman Russ represented, lets say, 5 Leman Russes, then I could see us ignoring cover and what not. ?So long as I move one mini at a time, and are concerned where it is on the battlefield as a unit, it is more a tactical game than a strategy game. I feel like sometimes Jervis is trying to make a 'Command and Conquer' game where you give a general order to a group of units and they go off and battle on their own. ?Trying to simulate that using minis just doesn't work for me. ?If Jervis can quote his favorite authors, point one out to me that stated that units couldn't fire at two seperate formations at once. ?Actually, in doing so, that would mean the unit would be able to distinguish seperate formations in a body of mixed infantry and tanks, which is about as unlikely as you can get. ? I think some sort of hull down rule should go into effect, just to give me more to think about as I am moving minis around the board. So long as a single Leman Russ mini represents a single Leman Russ tank, much of what Jervis is trying to do and get us to ignore just isn't going to happen. I don't think he is getting us to ignore it so much as he is just not factoring it. I'll agree that the game still models single vehicles and people but  the firing system doesn't take individual lines of fire into account. If my formation can draw a line of fire to a target then the entire formation can fire. Its a level of abstraction above a game that has single units firing at other single units so unless you want to start adding more complicated firing rules you might have to do without vehicle cover. I feel like sometimes Jervis is trying to make a 'Command and Conquer' game where you give a general order to a group of units and they go off and battle on their own.

He is. Units break (although in a fairly predictable way), you can't target units your opponent allocates the hits and your suppression is handled outside your control. There is quite a lot outside your control.

Its still damn fun and it still has a lot of tactical opportunities involved, you just don't have the same type of control as you do in other games.

I think some sort of hull down rule should go into effect, just to give me more to think about as I am moving minis around the board.

You could always bring this up on the EpicA board and see what the reaction is. It isn't a very large change to the game so it might be conceivable that it could be added.

Aside from that, there isn't anything stopping you from adding it yourself. House rules are always a good thing :-)