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Points Formula Rules

 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 12:12 am 
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Hey Magnus (and possibly others), just a few questions. :)

1. Template weapons have the damages buildings rule. Do I need to apply the factor of 1.5 for this, or has it been taken into account as a part of the template costings? I assume it needs to be added separately.

2. Also, is there a factor for indirect fire only? Some of the modern versions of 40k weapons can't shoot within their minimum range. Has this been taken into your minimum range calculation (-0.5*min range), or is that to factor that they can only direct fire within the minimum range?

3. Open topped transport vehicles. Is there a factor somewhere? I've been through the transport section but tend to get lost, and might have missed it.

Just having a play with the formula and came across these.

Edit. Just found another. The medusa has -6tsm vs buildings. I can't find that taken into account anywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 6:33 am 
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1. At the moment, no they do not. Not all of them, just those as listed in the rules. That was an idea that was being discussed, but as far as I know it is not official.

1A. If you are actually asking IF it has already been applied, then no it has not. If you want to play a variant of a model whose weapon has Damages Buildings, then you will have to determine if the weapons already has that (or Destroys, as Destroys outranks Damaged) and apply the modifier to the weapon if it does not. Note that you must not adjust the value of the whole model by 1.5, just the cost of the weapon.

2. Huh? I'm not understanding the question. As far as I am aware, any model whose type is "Heavy Artillery" or otherwise has a Barrage Point rated weapon is capable of firing directly (no scatter) or indirectly (scatters) - either way is still a barrage though, none of these weapons can be used as a direct-fire cannon - unless the description of the model or weapon says otherwise. A minimum range is just that - the minimum range at which the weapon can be used, whether direct or indirect does not matter. There is a modifier for BP rated weapons that cannot fire indirectly (*0.5), so the same modifier could be used for a weapon that can only be used indirectly. Actually, it already is, in a way. That modifier (*0.5) is used for those weapons that say "always scatters", which is roughly the same as saying that it always fires indirectly. Added.

2A. If you want to make a variant artillery weapon that can be used as either artillery OR direct-fire you can do that. You would have to work up the costs for both sets of weapon stats and divide by two (or however many ways it can be used), assuming it can only be used one way or the other in any specific turn.

3. Yes, Open Topped Vehicle is in the Transport section, I think. [Looks for it...] Er, well, hmm. I thought it was. Let's see what I did with the Ork Trukk. It's calculation for Transport is: ((1+0.5+0.25+0.5+0.5)*6).
_ Base cost (1),
_ one Infantry stand per slot (0.5),
_ may tow one LA with no slots (0.25),
_ one Walker per two slots (0.5),
_ two slots (0.5),
_ times move of 30cm (6... er, should be 3, I'll have to fix that).
No mention of OTV. Oooh, that's right. Primarch and I discussed that a long time ago and came to the conclusion that the benefit (being able to fire out) and the penalty (hits on model also hit a passenger) just about cancel each other out, thus it's modifier (to the Move value) is zero. I should have listed that. Good catch. Added.

4. Medusa. Good question, checking. Medusa has 100cm, 1 shot, 4+, -3, -6 vs Buildings. Calculation is: 2*2*1.5*4*1.5 which comes to 36.
_ Base value for direct fire weapon (2),
_ times range (2),
_ times shots (1, unlisted to save space),
_ times To hit 4+ (1.5),
_ times TSM -3 (4),
_ times SA "doubles TSM vs Buildings" (1.5).
Ah, another miscellaneous modifier I forgot to add to the main listing. Good catch. Added.

Actually, these questions reminded me that I have yet to update the main post for the changes due to version 0.325. I'll be doing that shortly. EDIT: Updated first and second posts with relevant changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 8:26 am 
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Nice one, thanks for the reply.
On point 1, the gold book describes all templates as hitting buildings. I interpreted this to mean damages them, which is incorrect (still learning things 20 years on!). Artillery weapons are described as being able to damage buildings in the "Resistant to Damage" section describing buildings. So I will need to apply the 1.5 factor to artillery weapons (provided they don't have destroys buildings factored already).

In other wargames some weapons that have a minimum range (such as the basilisk) are able to shoot directly at the target (i.e. with open sights) and ignore the minimum range when they do so. Some weapons (like the bombard) don't have this ability, so always apply the minimum range irrespective of if they have line of sight or not. I was hoping to be able to apply this with some of the units I make up. Your answer 2A covers that situation nicely. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 5:22 pm 
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Hmm, I guess I'll have to review that section of the rules on Barrages again. I may have overlooked that.

As a caveat to the direct-fire for artillery weapons, I should have said that that is how they work - to the best of my memory, which is not perfect. I don't recall seeing anything in NEG that allows that kind of fire, but I don't recall if it was allowed back in SM2/TL rules. I'll have to recheck the various FAQ articles.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:08 pm 
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OP updated for a small issue that is unlikely to come up, but possible. The description of Armor Save has had the following added to it:

If a model with no Save has Wounds, then the value for this factor is half the number of Wounds multiplied by 3.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:12 am 
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OP updated with small addition to list of CAF multipliers. It seems that I forgot that the Chainfist gives Penetrating on Close Combat hits. Also updating the calculations for a couple of CC Weapons. I'll post those a bit later.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:24 am 
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Hey Magnus.
Gorgon has a re-roll on the front armour. I wasn't able to find that anywhere, which may be for a number of reasons ;).

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:28 am 
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In my spreadsheet for Guard, I have two *1.5 multipliers adjusting the save value of 6 for the Gorgon. The first is because it is a Super Heavy, so the second must be because of the second armor save from the front arc. Looking at the entry for Armor Save modifiers, that is not listed. Good catch, I'll add that.

As a side note, since I've been a bit bored with Hit Locations recently (I'll get back to them soon I'm sure) I've been working on a side project involving stating up some models that have multiple Wounds, as well as other variable abilities. I have a few MechWarrior: Dark Age minis sitting around and I've been thinking about trying to convert them to Epic for years now. The Points Formula really made that easier, and I've recently finished converting them. If there is interest in seeing the stats, I'll post what I've done.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:19 am 
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Second post updated. Removed now redundant paragraph after the Break Point section and before the Morale section.

Specifically, the following was removed. I thought it was removed when I put in the new Break Point system, but must have missed it.

"Adjust the cost of a formation by the percentage that the Break Point varies from 100%. For example, a formation with three models generally has a BP of 2. In this case, one would adjust the cost by multiplying by 2/3. Any model(s) that do not contribute toward the Break Point multiply their vaule by 0.05."

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:39 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
In my spreadsheet for Guard, I have two *1.5 multipliers adjusting the save value of 6 for the Gorgon. The first is because it is a Super Heavy, so the second must be because of the second armor save from the front arc. Looking at the entry for Armor Save modifiers, that is not listed. Good catch, I'll add that.

As a side note, since I've been a bit bored with Hit Locations recently (I'll get back to them soon I'm sure) I've been working on a side project involving stating up some models that have multiple Wounds, as well as other variable abilities. I have a few MechWarrior: Dark Age minis sitting around and I've been thinking about trying to convert them to Epic for years now. The Points Formula really made that easier, and I've recently finished converting them. If there is interest in seeing the stats, I'll post what I've done.

Thanks for that. I'll add another 1.5 into my gorgon save calcs.

It is fun coming up with new unit stats. The formula takes the difficult decision out of applying points to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:07 pm 
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I've been having a thought recently. Well, a couple of thoughts really. One is that at least two people have requested that the formula be more friendly to pre-made formations with flexible structures. As much as I like the current set-up, I'm not just making this for me, so I have to take other people's needs into account. The other is that a few people have been being confused about the differences between the "model costs" listing and the "Formation costs" listing, which leads me to the conclusion that the differences between them are not as obvious as I would have thought. Thus I think a minor reworking of procedure is in order to improve clarity and usefulness.

What I'm going to try and do is to consolidate the two lists. Overall, there is no real reason that the "Model Cost" cannot also include the modifiers for Morale, Orders, and Formation Type. I'm even having some ideas as to how to integrate Break Point into that as well, along the lines of the formations that already have somewhat variable compositions.

I'll post more on this when and as I have more information.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:07 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I've been having a thought recently. Well, a couple of thoughts really. One is that at least two people have requested that the formula be more friendly to pre-made formations with flexible structures. As much as I like the current set-up, I'm not just making this for me, so I have to take other people's needs into account. The other is that a few people have been being confused about the differences between the "model costs" listing and the "Formation costs" listing, which leads me to the conclusion that the differences between them are not as obvious as I would have thought. Thus I think a minor reworking of procedure is in order to improve clarity and usefulness.

What I'm going to try and do is to consolidate the two lists. Overall, there is no real reason that the "Model Cost" cannot also include the modifiers for Morale, Orders, and Formation Type. I'm even having some ideas as to how to integrate Break Point into that as well, along the lines of the formations that already have somewhat variable compositions.

I'll post more on this when and as I have more information.


Hi!

That would be a very good idea Magnus. :)

What remains to be achieved or done from your end on the formula Magnus?

Other than potential changes to accommodate some flier changes, what needs to be fine tuned?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:19 pm 
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Bits of the formula still in progress, along with general priority in square brackets:

1. Consolidating the formation modifiers into model costs as mentioned above. [High]
2. Finishing the other Factions' revised Hit Location values (I've only really done Imperial so far). [High]
3. Single shot weapons. They seem to be mostly coming out a bit low. I'm going to try increasing the value of that. [Medium]
4. All general "Special Ability" values. As these were mostly set arbitrarily, they could use some examining to see if their relative values are acceptable, and if any more of them should be shifted into being adjustments to Base Stats (Move, CAF, etc). [Low]
5. Putting values to the Upgrades, Crew Skills, Mutations, and Rewards for the Titan Experience alternate system. Yes, I'm still working on the Chaos Rewards and Mutations from time to time. [Medium to Low]

I have the feeling that there was one or two other little things, but I cannot think of them offhand. Aside from issues that have not yet arisen, of course. Like the Flier revision. As far as I am aware, there has been no progress on selecting one of those for NE6. There can be no adjustments made to the formula for a revised Flier system until there is a revised Flier system. Note also that the flier rules in the formula will not be changing to match whatever is chosen, as NEG Flier rules are not changing, but additions will be made to allow for whatever system NE6 uses.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:14 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Bits of the formula still in progress, along with general priority in square brackets:

1. Consolidating the formation modifiers into model costs as mentioned above. [High]
2. Finishing the other Factions' revised Hit Location values (I've only really done Imperial so far). [High]
3. Single shot weapons. They seem to be mostly coming out a bit low. I'm going to try increasing the value of that. [Medium]
4. All general "Special Ability" values. As these were mostly set arbitrarily, they could use some examining to see if their relative values are acceptable, and if any more of them should be shifted into being adjustments to Base Stats (Move, CAF, etc). [Low]
5. Putting values to the Upgrades, Crew Skills, Mutations, and Rewards for the Titan Experience alternate system. Yes, I'm still working on the Chaos Rewards and Mutations from time to time. [Medium to Low]

I have the feeling that there was one or two other little things, but I cannot think of them offhand. Aside from issues that have not yet arisen, of course. Like the Flier revision. As far as I am aware, there has been no progress on selecting one of those for NE6. There can be no adjustments made to the formula for a revised Flier system until there is a revised Flier system. Note also that the flier rules in the formula will not be changing to match whatever is chosen, as NEG Flier rules are not changing, but additions will be made to allow for whatever system NE6 uses.


Hi!

As your time permits post up those points you need to attend to in order of priority and I will disseminate those points across the other formats.

I think we are coming to the juncture where a vote on flier systems will be held soon and well see what people want.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:55 am 
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primarch wrote:
As your time permits post up those points you need to attend to in order of priority and I will disseminate those points across the other formats.


I'm not quite sure what you are asking me here. I just did type them in, and I don't see what good it would do to mention them in various places. Well, it could do good I suppose, when and as I'm actually working on a thing. But at any other time it would be, at best, a distraction. If you could better describe what your thoughts are here, that could help.

primarch wrote:
I think we are coming to the juncture where a vote on flier systems will be held soon and well see what people want.


Good to hear.

Actually, I've just realized another thing I've missed. Models on stands (Infantry, LA, Cavalry, & Walkers) all have a 360 fire arc, but all other models (with a few exceptions) have a 180 front arc. The weapons of models on stands are thus slightly more powerful (as they are more versatile) than the same weapon on a Vehicle, and thus should cost more. At the moment, they do not. I'm going to be fixing this first, I think.

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