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Woe be da Orkz!

 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 6:08 pm 
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After reviewing the whole E-A download (50+ pages), there is more there that I'm not "crazy" about then otherwise. However, it has some good concepts, with the combat results system, having some merit and worth looking into. ?The personality/ character/ leader rules are of little use, but I had said this before, all our stands of Medics, Mekboy, Commissars etc. will stay the same in our "version" of Epic. ?E40K leader rules were not very good, either. ?Some real gaps in old troops vs. E-A troops lists. Although Jervis made an attempt, however still some holes exist. For Example, no IG Assault Troops, but that's easily fixed, I had mentioned this before too, that some "fine tuning" with old vs. E-A will probably be needed. The Indirect Fire rules are like an after thought. ?Artillery is a key asset in this type of game system, I have seen, in a couple of posts of army lists you guys put up for review, a clear lack of this. ?I don't know if that's because there is a lack of understanding of how to use Arty or the rules are weak. Probably a combination of both. ?The best system was from SM1 and we still use it. I could be wrong, but I was trained to call in artillery and airstikes in the "real-world", so what do I know :laugh: !!! ?The Aircraft rules are unnecessarily complicated, however the flak rules have some merit :l , a little more study on these are required ?:L ... ?One thing I've noticed, in a number of places in the rules, is that Jervis intimated, if you want, you can use other methods than outlined in the rules. ? So I see that as being a good concept. ?I don't like the organization charts, they are as weak as E40K's, sorry :{ , they just don't work for me. ? I realize this is still a work in progress, but I'm betting most of what we see is what we're going to get in the hard-copy of the rules when published. ?However, the unit lists give us an idea of what new units will be released, ie., Raptors, IG snipers, etc., etc. ? ?Hey guys, I don't mean to be negative, this is only my opinion, I say, as I have said before, use what rule system works for you. ?Please feel free to ignore my ramblings :laugh: !!!

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 7:21 pm 
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Legion 4,

Nothing wrong with what you said. Even if I did not agree with all the things you said, you did touch on most of the items that seem to be "issues" for people.

What I do find interesting is the amount of people who like each of the different editions. The split seems to be about even 1/3rd each of the veriations. Some think SM was the best, some think Epic40k, and some like this one the best.

In any case, I hope EpicA is a success if only to allow time for a lot of the new minis to make it out into our hands. ?:D

dafrca

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 7:39 pm 
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Let there be no doubt, I will buy the rule book, supplements etc., etc.  But I'm really looking forward to the new models from G/W & F/W. :D !!!   In the rules, Jervis did mention where he got some of his ideas from noted military authors and other facts from additional sources, so if nothing else, he at least did his "home work".  Being a former "Grunt" Officer and closet historian, that holds a lot of weight with me ...  However every one should be free to make their own decision.  You could even use Epic models for Monopoly tokens }:)  :laugh:  !!!!

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 9:56 pm 
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"My Landraider just landed on Park Place. I think we will attack your hotel..."

What an odd, yet funny image your comment brought to my mind  :p

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 12:55 am 
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You know someone's going to play a game now and maybe they'll show us a pic of a Predator on Marvin Gardens and an Ork Warbike in Jail :D !!!   :laugh:

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:30 am 
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Quote (dafrca @ 13 2003 April,21:56)
"My Landraider just landed on Park Place. I think we will attack your hotel..."

surely you mean "liberate"

:D

though it could be attack if the international press were holed up in there...

:D

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 4:49 pm 
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Jimbo, you must be watching as much TV News as I do, since the start of hostilities.  After watching 3 different stations, I'm still trying to figure out if the Orks are part of the Coalition.  And we'll have to have Jervis put a rule in E-A about if you shoot at a building, you must roll to see if any of the Media are in there. :D  If so you can't shoot or move for a turn ... :laugh:, out of fear of getting "bad press" ...  :{

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:18 pm 
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>> I don't like the organization charts, they are as weak as E40K's, sorry ?, they just don't work for me.
- Legion-4?


Really? ?I think they are good. They are loose enough to let the Ork players cobble together true Mobz, while the Imperials are structured. Both allow for rapidly choosing forces, like the old card system. What is it you don't like?

Maksim: ?
I am beginning to think the Ork war engines are not worth taking, at least not against IG. Someone posted a bit about taking a Stompa mob with a Supastompa and using it as a garrison unit. That's illegal, but I thought for 350 points, instead of taking a Supastompa, you could take _7_ Stompas. ?I think the firepower would balance out (more shots versus MW and titan killer weapons), but it would be more durable, and it could garrison. ?If you are really worried about the lack of titan killer/MW shots, take 5 Stompas and throw in a couple Oddboyz upgrades elsewhere.

So, it's disppointing that you can't effectively field Gargants against IG, but there are some very sweet, yet deliciously Orky options.
:p




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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:54 pm 
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Maksim:  
I am beginning to think the Ork war engines are not worth taking, at least not against IG. Someone posted a bit about taking a Stompa mob with a Supastompa and using it as a garrison unit. That's illegal, but I thought for 350 points, instead of taking a Supastompa, you could take _7_ Stompas.  I think the firepower would balance out (more shots versus MW and titan killer weapons), but it would be more durable, and it could garrison.  If you are really worried about the lack of titan killer/MW shots, take 5 Stompas and throw in a couple Oddboyz upgrades elsewhere. - Neal.


Neal,

Thanks for your great input. I really appreciate you writing. It's keeping me somewhat connected to E-A during a period where I'm more than a little frustrated with the system.

I experimented with Stompa mobs earlier in the playtesting and found them highly effective units against both IG and SMs. They were pretty good as garrisons as well. One of the big bummers though was having a slow Ork garrison force while the IG or SMs were bringing a faster force that would field NOTHING on the board the first turn. It made the Orks air strike fodder while I couldn't touch the Imperials.

This makes all games for Ork players a gamble: to bring enough airpower to maybe defend against an Imperial airstrike or not?

One of my solutions was to always bring a huge flight of Fighta-Bommas and a secondary smaller flight of Bommas. The Fighta-Bommas weren't all that great at defending, but they did take the edge off those vicious Imperial Marauder air strikes. I could then vector in a flight of three Ork Bommas, which is really hard on Imperial formations. It usually took only one Ork Bomma flight to break any SM formation or seriously wound IG formations.

Another experiment I tried out was to bring a mob designed to have two Supastompas (this was before the cruddy 0-1 rule), some Stompas, and a Mekboy shield car dragster to protect them. That was when Deathstrikes made my day a bad one. Being that units that take advantage of the better save from the shield car had to be within 5cm of the unit, it made my Ork formations artillary bait. I still almost won the game by taking objectives until the IG armored formation contested.

Ork Stompas are now better at CC, but they lack in almost every other area compared to earlier versions. 0-1 limits make it difficult to really maximize possible Ork advantages with special weapons.

The additional limited of weapons choices such as on the BFs (Battle Fortresses were able to carry a Supagun option at one time) really makes BFs less attractive. I no longer see them as much of a competitive unit even though in earlier playtesting, I loved them.

I now see that the only way for Ork players to be competitive is to bring huge KoS (Kult of Speed) units and mob the enemy, pretty much the same wooden sort of game play the Orks had in Epic-40k. In the early playtesting, Orks could use strategies other than a simple rushing mob. That's pretty much destroyed now. I don't see that maneauver has too much value for Orks anymore. They have to win the fight in the ensueing CC and hope to survive the enemy's long range firepower furing the rush (sort of like the Orks in BFG).


So, it's disppointing that you can't effectively field Gargants against IG, but there are some very sweet, yet deliciously Orky options. - Neal.


Gargants seem to be marginalized. They're sort of like the Ork Space Hulk in BFG, a big target with good firepower, but really not that hard to take out for a good trade in points if the enemy is willing to take caualties. The best thing about the Gargants is that they are the only Ork units likely to survive more than one encounter with the enemy. That's half the reason I took an Ork Space Hulk in BFG: it was my only unit that wasn't perfectly paper thin.

How are you using Gargants?

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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Why is the Stompa mob an illegal garrison now?

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:58 am 
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Neal & Max, I can't see your posts ?  I can only read your quotes and Emoticons ?  This has happened before.  What's up ?  ???

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:11 am 
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Ralph,
I think that you can't read the posts because you use Web-TV. They seem to work fine for me on every PC I've used. You might want to break down and get a PC.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.





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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:56 am 
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Point taken, Max. Thanks   :D

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:56 pm 
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Maksim:  Sorry this is long.

>> Ork Stompas are now better at CC, but they lack in almost every other area compared to earlier versions.

They have Reinforced Armor now.  I know they didn't in the 10.0 list, but I can't remember if they did in the earlier lists.  I'll take the trade.

>> 0-1 limits make it difficult to really maximize possible Ork advantages with special weapons.

I can see your point, but with the ability to add Oddboyz to every single formation, I don't think I agree.  I have a Bad Moon army, and I have organized it so the Weirdboy tower (I field them in every mob) now has an Oddboy giving it a supazap gun.

I haven't tried it out against a titan-having force yet, so I might be wrong, but I think it will be effective.  Everything in the ork army has good AT to strip shields, leaving those 3+TKd3 Supazap guns to peel apart titans.  Larger titans might be a problem, but scouts, or even reaver-level titans should be easy.

>> The additional limited of weapons choices such as on the BFs (Battle Fortresses were able to carry a Supagun option at one time) really makes BFs less attractive. I no longer see them as much of a competitive unit...

I agree.  The Oddboyz upgrade for BFs is way out of line.  I am hoping it will be changed to 50 points and replace just the the Big gunz (or evne one big gun, like on the gunwagon).  I think they are still competitive without the upgrade.  Overall, I'd say the Battlewagon is the weakest tank/transport for the orks.

>> I now see that the only way for Ork players to be competitive is to bring huge KoS (Kult of Speed) units and mob the enemy

In my last fight (against SMs without titans), lots of stuff worked.  The Big Gunz mob unleashed havoc, placing BMs wherever I wanted (garrisoned in a good position near midboard, and big enough to consistently rally).  The warband moved in a big arc around the gunzmob, and between size and the BMs from the gunz, swept formation after formation off the board.  The Stompa mob got burned by some terminators with truly insane dice rolls, but that happens from time to time.  My Kult of Speed did more to distract my opponent and snag objectives than actual combat damage.

>> I don't see that maneauver has too much value for Orks anymore.

Between mounting up, counter-charges, and follow-up moves after CC, I found them to be very mobile, even after they dismounted.  I even charged a stompa mob through a bunch of woods, and let me tell you, -1 to be hit for cover, plus reinforced armor makes for a VERY durable unit - at least until 3 terminator stands shrug off 3 MW hits and 4 regular hits in a firefight, then roll a 6 for the resolution...

>> They have to win the fight in the ensueing CC and hope to survive the enemy's long range firepower furing the rush (sort of like the Orks in BFG).

Well... yeah, I guess so.  Luckily, those nobz now blow off BMs left and right.  With the supreme commander re-rolls, I never had a critical initiative roll fail.

>> Gargants seem to be marginalized.

Agreed.  They are undergunned, but there are some small advantages.  First, you're going to have a supreme commander gargant, so you get an extra MW assault and an invulnerability save.  Second, they have lots of DC, so they are very good in assaults and very hard to suppress.  Third, combining those two, your gargant can use Command ability and charge along with a mob or two.  Nothing is going to stand up to that.

>> How are you using Gargants?

Sparingly.  :D

>> Why is the Stompa mob an illegal garrison now?

It's not, unless it has a Supastompa.  War engines cannot garrison unless they have a speed of 0.

Anyway, none of this is to negate your complaints.  I just hope to mitigate your concerns somewhat.  And w/ respect to airpower, I haven't played a game with the new rules yet, so I can't really comment.  Number crunching off the army list stats seems to look okay, but that's not really a good indication.

If we were nearby, I'd love to play.

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:17 pm 
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Neal,

Thanks for all of your replies. I really appreciate them. They go a long way towards placating this old dog!  :laugh:

Anyway, none of this is to negate your complaints.  I just hope to mitigate your concerns somewhat.  And w/ respect to airpower, I haven't played a game with the new rules yet, so I can't really comment.  Number crunching off the army list stats seems to look okay, but that's not really a good indication.

If we were nearby, I'd love to play. - Neal.


I think that the Orks can win, just not that they're very competitive any more. I think they'll lose to any determined and experienced IG and possibly SM player with the new rules.

The 0-1 limitations the worst for restricting units. It really takes the edge off making innovative units and encourages extra formations. The old "buy two to get one" was much better.

The biggest pieces tend to sacrifice the most for upgrades like the BattleFortresses.

I had that problem in BFG. I kept rolling up the Exterminatus mission with my Waaa-Fleet, and the only Ork piece capable of withstanding a pass by other forces is the Hulk. Unfortunately, my opponent wouldn't agree to let me replace one weapon sytem on the front INSTEAD of ALL of them. I can see now that I should have done it.

The Hulk is the only thing that stands a chance of making an Exterminatus run for the Orks. Everything else will be shot down by reinforcements making a run from the side and getting their free shot (can always target the Exterminatus).

I also proposed that Gargants should be able to trade out their shoulder Big Gunz for an AAA mount, but noone went for it. I think the flexibility of having AAA built into a Gargant is very useful.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: Woe be da Orkz!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:24 am 
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Neal, I had my buddy download your post, that my simple system could not read, as I said before. I like the SM1 system, and some of the SM2 system better than E40K and E-A, for templating organizations for a number of reasons. The SM & IG are based on real military TO&Es, and with my background, that appeals to me. The other Epic forces' TO&Es are designed in a similar style and they are Alien, yet fit in well with each other. ?And like I said we've been using them for many years now and they work well for us. ?Of course for my Epic TAU & Kroot, I'll have to use the E40K and E-A method (when it's released) to organize those, and "meld" them with our SM1/SM2 hybrid rules. ?But like I said, use what works for you, regardless of what, I think ... :D

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