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How is cover from intervening terrain usually ruled?

 Post subject: Re: How is cover from intervening terrain usually ruled?
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 4:08 pm 
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lord-bruno wrote:
Kyrt wrote:

So the attacker could:
    Fire with A, B and C without the -1, and hits can be allocated to 1, 2 and 3.
    Fire with A, B, C and D. All attacks would take the -1 modifier, and hits can be allocated to 1, 2 and 3.


Rules-wise, when you fire with A,B,C and D, only D would have the -1 modifier, not all of them. Because target formation is not "in cover".


only if D fired a different weapon type than A,B and C. (as in AP as the others fired AT or vice versa).

If they all fired the same weapon type (all AP, all AT or all MW) then they ALL have to take -1 for cover.
You cannot have the same weapon type shooting both in and out of cover (some taking -1 and some not).

Clarification from the GW official FAQ

Quote:
Q: When shooting at a formation where some units are in cover and others are not you can elect whether to shoot at targets in cover (in which case you take the -1 penalty) or not (in which case you don't). What is the scope of this decision?
• The entire shooting formation?
• Each shooting weapon type?
• Each shooting unit?
• By damage type (AT vs. AP)?
• Each shooting weapon?
• Unspecified, work it out with your
opponent?
For example, if someone shoots at my tactical formation, which has three exposed rhinos and six marines in cover, does the attacker have to take the -1 to hit the rhinos (which is AT fire), if he wants the tactical marines to be potential targets for his AP fire?


A: The choice to shoot at in-cover or out-of-cover targets must be done by the entire formation. It can only be separated by type of weapon fire. If you had AT, AP, and MW fire in one salvo, you could fire AT at out-of-cover, AP at in-cover and MW at in-cover. Or any other arrangement, as long as all of each fire type (AP, AT, MW) is directed solely at one target type (in-cover or out-of-cover). You cannot split up targeting of a single type of fire. If an IG infantry company had 2 units out of cover and 10 units in cover and you were firing with, say, 8 AP shots, you could not target 4 AP at out-of-cover and 4 at in-cover. All the AP shots would have to be directed at a single target type.


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 Post subject: Re: How is cover from intervening terrain usually ruled?
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:35 pm 
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Onyx wrote:
It's actually really simple.

The Epic Armageddon rules wrote:
all you need to do is bend over and get a ’model’s eye view’ to see if they are in each others line of fire.

Just bend over and look from the weapons/stands PoV.
If you can see the target clearly, shoot with no modifier.
If any part of the target is partially obscured, apply the -1 modifier.
If the target is not visible, the shot cannot be taken.

The Epic Armageddon rules wrote:
The method used by the author (and the default you should use if you can’t agree to an alternative) is that a weapon is in range if any bit of the attacking weapon is within range of any part of the target model (or at least one of the models on a target stand).
Whilst this is spcifically mentioning weapon range, it is clear that LoS and range should both be measured from the weapon.

This also works easily with area terrain as long as the area terrain is defined clearly (ie, Los is blocked to the edge of the area terrain and to the height of the highest terrain piece - be it trees/buildings etc).

Anything else is trying to complicate a situation that is really simple.

Again though, the 5 minute warm up is the place to make sure both/all players are on the same page.

There are good points to TLOS (though very few in a game with no fixed scale) but simplicity really isn't one of them

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 Post subject: Re: How is cover from intervening terrain usually ruled?
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 7:21 am 
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:)
No worries Steve.
As the Rules Chair, I'm just trying to answer the original question with what's in the rule book.

House rules/rules evolutions/ rules interpretations/ rules progressions, etc are all fine but I find it helpful to know what the original intention of the game was/is.

In this regard, it's:
If you can see it clearly, shot with no modifier.
If you can see some of the target, shot with -1 (which should be generously applied).
If you can't see it, you can't shot.

I consider that quite simple. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: How is cover from intervening terrain usually ruled?
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:57 am 
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Onyx wrote:
I consider that quite simple. ;D

And for your next trick, direct fire barrage through intervening terrain!

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 Post subject: Re: How is cover from intervening terrain usually ruled?
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:40 pm 
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dptdexys wrote:
lord-bruno wrote:
Kyrt wrote:

So the attacker could:
    Fire with A, B and C without the -1, and hits can be allocated to 1, 2 and 3.
    Fire with A, B, C and D. All attacks would take the -1 modifier, and hits can be allocated to 1, 2 and 3.


Rules-wise, when you fire with A,B,C and D, only D would have the -1 modifier, not all of them. Because target formation is not "in cover".


only if D fired a different weapon type than A,B and C. (as in AP as the others fired AT or vice versa).

If they all fired the same weapon type (all AP, all AT or all MW) then they ALL have to take -1 for cover.
You cannot have the same weapon type shooting both in and out of cover (some taking -1 and some not).

Clarification from the GW official FAQ

Quote:
Q: When shooting at a formation where some units are in cover and others are not you can elect whether to shoot at targets in cover (in which case you take the -1 penalty) or not (in which case you don't). What is the scope of this decision?
• The entire shooting formation?
• Each shooting weapon type?
• Each shooting unit?
• By damage type (AT vs. AP)?
• Each shooting weapon?
• Unspecified, work it out with your
opponent?
For example, if someone shoots at my tactical formation, which has three exposed rhinos and six marines in cover, does the attacker have to take the -1 to hit the rhinos (which is AT fire), if he wants the tactical marines to be potential targets for his AP fire?


A: The choice to shoot at in-cover or out-of-cover targets must be done by the entire formation. It can only be separated by type of weapon fire. If you had AT, AP, and MW fire in one salvo, you could fire AT at out-of-cover, AP at in-cover and MW at in-cover. Or any other arrangement, as long as all of each fire type (AP, AT, MW) is directed solely at one target type (in-cover or out-of-cover). You cannot split up targeting of a single type of fire. If an IG infantry company had 2 units out of cover and 10 units in cover and you were firing with, say, 8 AP shots, you could not target 4 AP at out-of-cover and 4 at in-cover. All the AP shots would have to be directed at a single target type.


Yes, I know that. But in this case (diagram), target formation is not "in cover". Hence the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: How is cover from intervening terrain usually ruled?
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 1:20 pm 
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lord-bruno wrote:
Yes, I know that. But in this case (diagram), target formation is not "in cover". Hence the difference.


There is no difference, the cover to hit modifier (-1) is for both situations "in cover" or "partly obscured by intervening terrain" , it's the same rule. There isn't a separate rule for being partially obscured.
The only difference being actually "in cover" makes is it gives infantry an option to use the save represented by the cover type, unless specified by the terrain rules table (as in gun emplacements and so on).

Quote:
1.8.2 Cover To Hit Modifiers
Units that are in terrain that is tall enough to at least partially obscure them from an attacker’s view receive a -1 to hit modifier when being shot at (see 1.9.5). The to hit modifier also applies if intervening terrain obscures the target partially from view.


When using direct fire weapons (barrages have their own special rules) each weapon type has to choose to either take the -1 or not, you cannot fire weapons of the same type with some at -1 and some not.

In the diagram, as Kyrt originally stated you could either fire A,B and C without -1 but if you wanted to fire D as well all would have to take the -1 (as D cannot get a clear LoS to any unit being targeted).
FAQ is clear that it is an ALL or nothing situation, different type of cover makes no difference.


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