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[EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2

 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:53 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
Did this list die?

nope, got a playtest with MikeT using it lined up for tomorrow, feel free to observe on vassal (uk evening)

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:40 pm 
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As others have said, very much not dead. Would love to see some playtest games though :) In general, I think the only thing still outstanding is a final consideration of Plague Tower stats, and I'm currently leaning towards a 20cm move but a prescription against marching.

I've also been mentally toying with some kind of Khorne daemonic engine troop transport, as it seems a shame to waste all those awesome Khornate Daemonic Engines and if any greater power would have a daemonic engine for disgorging troops into melee, it would be Khorne. Not sure I'd want to add in a new unit for testing at this late-ish stage though. Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:44 pm 
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Land transports are fine with Khornate cultists. Would like to see a slight change to the engines though.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:13 pm 
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I would love to bring you more, but I play too little nowadays... Tower nomarch seems reasonable. Is there precedent for nurgle not marching ruleswise? Feels like an in character thing. Agree on the children of the Khorny using land raiders. Should be enough.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:28 pm 
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There is a precedent in the nurgle death guard 0.2 list, as well as in the EUK death guard list under the implacable advance special rule.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:09 pm 
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I guessed as much. Nice touch. I supposed there would be an above list level chaos god trait.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:53 am 
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Also FIY both of those mentioned above are army wide, not specifically just the plague tower.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:52 am 
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Yes. I surmised as much.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:24 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
Land transports are fine with Khornate cultists. Would like to see a slight change to the engines though.



Any suggestions? They do feel both a bit too expensive for what they do, while also mechanically very close to Defilers.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:43 pm 
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I have been thinking about this and where an increase in range for the shooting would be good I actually think it is the size of the formation that causes the problem.

A simple solution might be to allow for a single or two additional engines to be added. This would give the formation a bit more hitting power, but also more staying as this is where the formation is let down. Problem that I see with this is that if you have an upgrade of two then the cost will be more than a Lord of Battle and will affect this unit.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:09 am 
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LATD Redux v0.2 3000pts

Slaneesh Cultist Coven (Daemonic Pact) 525
Winged Daemon Prince (Arch-Heretic), Icon Bearer, 8xCultist, 3xBig Mutant, 7xLand Transporter, Chaos Altar

Slaneesh Cultist Coven (Daemonic Pact) 365
Demagogue, Icon Bearer, 9xCultist, 2xBig Mutant, 7xLand Transporter, 2xTechnical

Tzeentch Cultist Coven (Daemonic Pact) 365
Demagogue, Icon Bearer, 9xCultist, 2xBig Mutant, 7xLand Transporter, 2xTechnical

Plague Zombie Infestation 175
2D6+3xPlague Zombie

Slaneesh Questor Titan 275

Slaneesh Subjugator Titan 225

4xSlaneesh Daemon Knights 275

Tzeentch Firelord 150

3xTzeentch Doomwings 150

4xHellfire Cannons Undivided 200

Lesser Daemons 195
13xLesser Daemons (+3 Pacts)

Greater Daemons 100
2xGreater Daemons

Played this list versus a pretty standard SL Guard force. The list is heaps more interesting to play, so that’s fantastic.

Couple of mistakes I made or things I’d do differently:
Don’t put your Icon Bearer upgrade onto the Demagogue stand that you sacrifice!
Keep Infantry inside vehicles to allow better movement into engagements and use more Big Mutants so if the transports are shot out then you still get an armour save.
Summon demons more often….I ended up with heaps left in my summoning pools.

Some comments:
The Chaos Altar really doesn’t work properly at 15cm movement for a formation with transports. I’ve used it plenty of times with the old LATD list. It’s usually seen as underpowered. Why not just make it movement 20cm?
Why aren’t Firelords cheaper if you take more in a formation? Eg 1 for 150, 2 for 275, 3 for 375 or something?

Keep up the great work!


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:39 am 
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Good to see more use of this list. Two things spring to mind. First, shouldn't the title be changed to ... redux 0.2? Also, I find it a bit strange that a force without Nurgle cultists is still able to take plague zombies? Or maybe you could counts as creatively. Like for Slaanesh you could have a horde of misguided Goth youths aimlessly meandering the battlefield?

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:31 pm 
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The Altar obviously doesn't work with a transported formation, but as part of a non mounted formation, possibly one designed to sit back, protect your blitz and be your BTS, having a 4+RA, Invulnerable, 3DC fearless unit in it is actually fairly useful. Inspiring, augmented summoning and Daemonic focus means it's more like having a permanent Greater Daemin att ached to the formation which doesn't need to be summoned and doesn't disapear when broken.

All that taken together, and I really don't think it's that underpowered or overcosted. I've certainly taken one a few times and not regretted it.

Doomwing costing was inherited from the original Stigmatus Coven list, though they do seem rather expensive, especially compared to something like the Helltalon bombers, which I would say overall are (slightly) better, yet substantially cheaper.


Thread title changed to reflect latest version release; good catch!

Regarding plague zombies, and their availability without a Nurgle Coven; Nurgle covens already control access to the excelent plague towers and the contagion engines (the lists only artilary), so locking the zombies behind them as well felt like a bad idea.

Conceptually, they could just as easily be a horde of frenzied cultists, or (as I've modeled them) daemonic infestations erupting from the ground.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:51 pm 
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Yep. That's my point with the Slaanesh Gothic youths above. Would be nice to find some faction free name to encourage colorful proxying.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:54 pm 
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20cm move for the Plague Tower but no marching for Nurgle Daemon Engines would be a good idea. I'd be inclined to make the individual Plague Tower 325 though, with additional upgrade ones (to go with infantry or this first individual Plague Tower +300).

Consider adopting the +1 to activate when engaging for Khorne Daemon Engines that they have in the Epic-UK World Eaters list. It seems very fitting for them to be better at doing what they love and kinda silly for a Lord of Battle to get confused and not charge enemies right next to him one sixth of the time. An option to add 1-2 extra would be good. Maybe they're slightly overpriced too? The Epic-UK WE list has 4 for 275 and that's with their higher strategy rating and better chance of engaging.

Now that there's a v0.2 of the list remove 0.1 from the first post, don't have both there. That's what others normally do and it stops people accidentally using the out of date list thinking it's current.

Chaos Alter in the upgrade list is misspelt.

The Defiler is missing the Infiltrate and Walker special rules which is should have. It's battle claws should be MW too.

Is the reduction to FF5+ deliberate or a typo for the Lord of Battles? It had FF4+ in the original LATD list and in the Epic-UK lists and has enough guns that do have 4+ seems appropriate. I would recommend adopting the worse critical effect of it also taking an extra point of damage as well as the random move - this has been applied across the board to other too easy criticals like this (Warhounds, the Slaanesh titans, etc) and in the Epic-UK WE's Lord of Battle.

Is Chaos Hounds having Fearless and an Invulnerable save intentional or a mistake? I believe they are intended to be mortal dogs and they didn't used to have either of these special rules. They'd be a bit good for their cost with them.

Is Contagion Engines having speed 25cm rather than 15cm a typo? They're meant to be slow and to be to garrison. They used to 15cm in the original LATD list and are that in the Epic-UK lists.

Your Greater Daemon criticals are wrong - summoned units within 5cm should be destroyed on a 6+. It shouldn't effect all units. See the BL list.

Plague Bearers typo - 'Plague Sawords'.

Daemonic Beasts should have no FF value whatsoever not 4+.

I see you've adopted the BL summoning changes which is great :) The way it's formatted at the moment makes it unnecessarily unclear though - at present there's a table that just has Daemonic Beasts next to undivided. I had a quick look and assumed that was it for a while. Only later did I see the extra line a couple of lines below mentioning further summoning options. Do it the way Epic-UK have it instead with "Daemonic Beasts, Any other Lesser Daemon for twice the usual summoning points, Any Greater Daemon" all in one line next to undivided in the table. Much clearer.

I've got two formations of bases of 'Slaanesh Spawn' (slimey, vaguely sperm-like looking things) that I use as proxies for Plague Zombies so I would be sad to see them made Nurgle only and hope they stay neutral. I'd prefer to keep the name of Plague Zombies for the unit though, rather than renaming it something more generic, people can just use counts as.

Maybe the Doomwing could go up to 30cm range for it's weapon like in the Epic-UK TS list? They've altered Fire Lords cost and made them cheaper too. I'm strongly opposed to their change of making their bombs BP2 rather than D3 BP though - Tzeentch is the god of change and randomness and random elements like this in the list are highly appropriate.

I keep bringing it up occasionally but please, please consider giving the Chaos Altar the option of a split profile choice just like a Daemon Prince can have - with slow and tough armour or fast but weaker armour. Chaos Altars are extremely thematic (I have beautiful extensively converted altars for each god that really show off what the god stands for and the mutated weirdness of chaos, much more than infantry can at this scale) and I always take one per chaos god I'm fielding in the game for modelling and theme reasons, not wanting to use Hydras at all. Unfortunately they're so slow and can't garrison so you're left with many expensive slow formations and limited tactical choices, particularly when using 4 altars in a 3k game as I often would. The end result is in practice I simply choose to play other armies instead while my LATD kick their heels unused on the shelf. If they had an alternate option of dropping to a 5+ Reinforced version in exchange for a 25cm move that would be fantastic as they could also be used with mechanised formations. They'd slow them down a bit, so be a trade off - like adding a Land Raider to a Tactical formation. I can definitely imagine some chaos factions - Slaanesh and Tzeentch in particular - building faster, lighter altars compared to the others and there's no inherent reason why a large altar needs to be slow, there are plenty of ways they could be made fast using technology and/or chaos weirdness. As it would be an alternate optional choice it would add the option for those that chose to use it, while not effecting existing peoples lists if they don't want to. I'd definitely playtest this and the list a lot (6+ battle reports) if you were to trial it.


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