Due to being bedridden because of a viral infection I thought this might be a good time to use Mattman's Word document to rewrite my Evolution rules.

Straight off I've noticed that my original draft contains an orders phase, something which I've long since dispensed with as units as ordered as they activated now. I was actually surprised when I spotted that in my previous version of the rules!

Anyway, I'm thinking about the Fog of War which means units cannot be fired upon until they have been activated. I've always assumed that players would always want to activate everything in turn 1 but it occurred to me that some players may, for whatever reason, wish not to activate and keep their units in reserve hidden by fog of war until later turns in the game. I'm not sure what I feel about such a tactic. I can't see much benefit in it except for fliers where they could remain hidden only to reveal themselves in a later turn and suddenly fly into the battlefield dropping off troops. There's every likelihood that they could achieve this without Fog of War by flying low and hiding behind terrain though so I'm not sure it would make much difference.

Anyway, I'm faced with 2 choices on Fog of War:

1) Units are hidden by Fog of War until activated during Turn 1. The Fog of War is removed at the start of Turn 2 regardless of whether some units were not activated in Turn 1.

or

2) Units are hidden by Fog of War throughout the battle until they are activated. Potentially if the VPs total is reached, the battle could end without them ever having being revealed.


Does anyone have feelings about this either way?

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Hi!

Number 1 is the way to go. I see to many ways to abuse number 2.

Of course number one is not perfect either, since assuming a whole army is somehow "hidden" before anyone is activated brings some problems as well, but less than the second option.

Primarch

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Primarch


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I like this "fog of war" idea, but I think #1 is a bit better--and will cause less game-mechanics problems. Though I do like #2 as well, just not as much.

You could also use a rule where a hidden is revealed even before they activate if an enemy unit gets within X range of them, thus spotting them visually and the targeting equipment takes over from that point on.

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Yeah, 1 was my default position and it has just occurred to me that the likes of Chaos players might abuse it to draw enemy armies closer to them or reveal to cause a pincer attack.

The Fog of War is necessary to stop players simply activating Titans with 100cm weapons and wiping out transports with troops before they have even moved. There's no way around it. Equally though it hasn't caused in problems in games I've played, players have accepted that is how it works and there haven't been any problems as a result. The first few activations in particular tend to be a game of cat and mouse, get stuff on to the battlefield but try not to leave them exposed to enemy fire. Which Is how I remember it worked in traditional Net Epic anyway.

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Hi!

This would have to be added in order for either to really work well. Of course at this point its looking a lot like SM1 hidden counters use and rules. Not a bad thing, but you could just use those with some modifications.

Primarch

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That's a nice compromise idea Splash but I guess it is best to just keep with 1 as you suggest both to prevent unseen consequences and also to keep things as simple as possible.

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Welcome to the viral infection club! (i've been knocked on my arse by one lll this week, and being away from home doesn't help)

I do like the 'fog of war' mechanic however i think it is open to abuse if not clarified a bit.

I would have assumed that you couldn't choose not to activate a unit to take advantage of remaining hidden, and that all units were revealed by the start of turn 2 regardless, and that's how i think it should probably work from my limited play testing.

It does make Turn 1 a very different turn to the rest of the game, as it could allow players with a lot of cheap detachments to activate them early and force an opponent to show his whole hand, knowing that they can freely move their more precious units later with little chance of retaliation.
I could see this being frustrating for the opposing player, knowing that there are some juicy units that he can't touch until later in the game.

This doesn't really bother me much (having only played a couple of games so far) and in terms of simulating a battle this tactic would be pretty accurate i suppose (sending in the fodder/recon first before revealing the big guns)

As for holding back flyers etc, i'd suggest that if you weren't implementing a 'mandatory activation' for all units in turn 1, then flyers would need to be grounded or move their 'at least 50%' normal move -
Otherwise there might as well be a rule for bringing on units in reserve in later turns (maybe requiring a D6 roll 40k style)?

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Hi!

Not to derail this thread, but this is exactly why standard net epic ranges are "too long". With SM1/AT1 ranges this would not happen (max 72cm).


I personally think Evolution would benefit from shorter ranges, since you now move and shoot in one activation. Food for thought.

Primarch

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It's totally up to players if they want to have their units hidden, most likely by drawing a map of the battlefield and noting down where their units start. I have no problem with that but it isn't really the purpose of the Fog of War. Instead, I expect players to place their models and units in plain view as normal, it's just that they can't fire at units covered by Fog of War (see my Titan example above, I don't want the situation where units are being destroyed before they have even had the chance to move).

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Hope you make a speedy recovery Craig! At least I have the benefit of suffering while being surrounded by home comforts.

It seems that version 1 is the way to go and I'm happy with that. If players choose not to activate in turn 1 then they could do so without fear of attack but in turn 2 there is nowhere to hide.

You're spot on about moving the smaller units first but was this ever different under standard Net Epic? I'd always move the small units first and Titans last for the reason that you wouldn't want your opponent to know where your Titan would be early on as he would line up as many units to fire upon your Titan as possible.

As for reserves, that might be a good subject for the general Platinum discussions. I'm not that concerned about it but would be happy to allow it if it were a rule that might be introduced across the systems.

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I completely take on board your point about this Primarch; it was the thing that almost derailed the whole Evolution project until I devised the Fog of War solution. At the same time I've always wanted the system to not to require changes to units because I know how set in their ways players are about the unit stats (I'm one of them). I fear that if that were introduced a lot of the people who may have played Evolution would not try it out.

72cm would not solve this, the Titan would simply advance and be in range to do damage to units that had not moved...

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Hi!

There is no real way around the issue of "fire first and kill" in a combined activation mechanic without the adjusting of ranges. You'll find yourself as you do now, having to add "amendments" to a problem without addressing the real issue - range.

Changing the stock rules by making combined activations is not a trivial change. Even when net epic changed the original "IGOUGO" it saw an impact on not only how the game was played, but how different units interact with the rule system.

You can't change something as integral as the turn sequence and not expect something to go awry. The whole initiative shooting first thing is one example, but you and I have run into others like how certain abilities work and are balanced (deep strike, infiltrate) or how close combat works (which trying to integrate that in one activation causes all sorts of headache) amongst other things.

I think, like the standard game you need to take the good with the bad and first shot kills is something you need to live with because granting a whole army "immunity" on turn one, until they activate is a little too contrived for my tastes and penalizes some armies more than others (no massive turn one mycetic spore drops for tyranids).

Its the principal of unintended consequences. I just see way too many with the "hidden" until activated rule. I would just "live with" the first shot first kill scenario.

Of course I would just rather overhaul ranges.

Primarch

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Hi!

It IS different under stock net epic rules. You don't move AND shoot in the same activation. You alternate move with the opponent, then alternate firing. This means you can MOVE exposed units away from danger, BEFORE firing takes place. That is a small but massive change on how the game plays.

I prefer single activation systems, but I have learned you will HAVE TO change certain things in order to accommodate it. Its not possible to take the core of gold, change something as vital as turn sequence and its execution and expect the base design to fit it. I've been doing this with the core net epic rules for 18 years and I have learned what it can do and what it can't.

I realize your design goal is basically to keep the stock game and just adding a unified activation mechanic. But i feel the need to point out that you will have to make compromises if you are not willing to tinker with other mechanical aspects.

I think Evolution needs to "evolve" some more.

Primarch

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I'll hopefully be playing Warhead's Tyranids next week - would have been last night were it not for this damn viral infection. Because I've never seen them in action I don't have any idea how they'd operate in Evolution. I'll think about it after that.

It's not ideal but I don't feel the contrivance to be a problem so long as it works in play which it seems to for Marines, IG, Eldar, Chaos, Orks & Squats all of which have been play tested to lesser or greater degrees under this system now.

I have no issue with players doing as they wish but personally I'd be furious if a Titan armed up with Volcano/Quake Cannon and wiped out a huge number of my troops being carried by transports before they'd even entered play.

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Not arguing that moving and firing is no different to moving then firing later in the turn because obviously it is. My point is that in the countless games of Epic I've played over the years, I can't remember many situations where I moved my Titan out before most of my forces. It gives the opponent too much of an advantage in moving their forces into position to best deal with the Titan. Almost invariably, I and people I played against would move their smallest / least powerful units into the arena first with the big guns moving later. In that respect how the game plays is significantly different but the tactics employed aren't.

One of the main things that came out of the discussion about what makes Net Epic Net Epic is the stats, people are loyal to those and I really am no different in that respect. Therefore I am working on this system with that in mind.

Primarch also raised the point about how some units with special rules and abilities will inevitably be affected by the change to the system. On the whole these are in the minority but I am looking closely at these things during my rewrite of the rules. Please bear with me until I finish the rewrite with my solutions...

By the way, I'm very much enjoying the discussion this has created. It's great to hear what people think. I'd rather know if there are problems or concerns people have and I will try to address them.

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