By your own admission you're taking a sub-optimal list for aesthetic reasons; the fact that it's not performing as well as otherwise should in no way be a surprise. Specifically, those cheap formations are in there to allow you to maintain activation parity whislt also bulking up your knight formations to make them more resilient.

Secondly (as already pointed out by Uvenlord), just about any army would be suseptible to the same air assault tactics and your opponent has now used 850 points of troops to kill 300 points of yours; congratulate him heartily then have great fun gunning down his assault marines, thunderhawk and speeders he's left dangling out by themselves unsupported.

Finally, for the piddling cost of 125 points, you could have a fairly respectable 60cm radius flak bubble; certainly large enough to fit your entire army under for deployment.

@WoU - I'm fielding a list similar to what you're talking about but with 4 strong formations (2 P, 1 E, 1 L w/ B, 1 Cr, 1 Ca, 3 TBolt). The 3 strong formations break way too easily for me.

I'd have to see how you're deploying, but if you're using Lancers you can garrison to screen with them on overwatch (either shoot the speeders or the assault marines as they land). They might be too spread out for an air assault but if it get's 650 points on the ground where you can get at it. That's worth 300 in my opinion.

When I deploy and air/drop/teleport are in numbers, I pack them in:





Just to make sure, as WEs they can use their FF (and hit units in CC with another WE) if you'd rather use FF.

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Hi,
Just remeber that 3.3.2 states:

3.3.2 Close Combat and Firefight Attacks
Instead of rolling a single hit dice for each war engine in an assault, roll a number of hit dice equal to the war engine’s starting damage capacity. You may choose to split these between close combat rolls and firefight rolls as you see fit, but close combat rolls will only hit enemy units in base contact, while firefight rolls will only hit units within 15cm that are not in base contact.

So I know what you mean WoU. With the low model number it can be hard to actually have sufficient targets to engage at in the assault. Without having to pour in to close combat.

Because if your opponent is smart he will base to base you with his thunderhawk and you no longer have a valid target because all of his marines are loaded up on your knights. But he can still choose to use the Thawk FF if.not all of your knights can make it into combat.

I thought Crusaders came in 3's, wouldn't that be 6 attacks, also as they are WE's why wouldn't each Crusader use their 4+ FF values to attack against the Assault Marines that were not in Base to Base with them.

Refer to 3.3.2. I read that to be those that aren't in base to base at all. Not just those that aren't in base to base with your Knight/we. Is that correct or am I reading it wrong?

your reading it wrong

Is thay faq'd?

Cause 3.3.2 is pretty unambiguous "that are not in base to base." it doesn't say "that are not in base to base with them"

Might take this to the main board. Sorry for leading the convo astray.

Wow, thanks for the replies guys! Your points have given me a lot to think about.

Uvenlord and MikeT - You guys are correct, my opponent does use up a lot of his points in doing that - but I find over the course of the game with him or my Ork friend that it's the loss of 1 or 2 activations from my army so early on that I then start to struggle with. The assault marines all die later alright, but I usually spread out my deployment to cover as much of the board as I can, and to advance evenly on all fronts, to make it easier to nab objs in the late game. This means that I don't usually have much more than 1 or 2 other units near enough to react quick enough. It also slows down my advance, and keeps most of my remaining units stuck in my deployment zone until turn 2 when they move off again.

Which leads nicely into the next point that Dave bought up - I like the deployment there, matey. I will have to try that sometime - as my opponents ALWAYS have Air Assault units, i'm probably suffering a bit from inflexibility in my tactics - i'll see how a really 'cramped' deployment can serve me. hmm.

To those who pointed out that I should be getting 6 attacks not 4, you are correct - that was me thinking (and typing) too fast and not checking my maths, only my spelling Although 6 attacks on 5+ would average 1 dead marine, however I also didn't add the Thawk to his numbers, so it'd still be 8-1 or thereabouts.

Lastly - this more concerning point that Jim has quite rightly raised - it seems some of you think that 3.3.2 means I could use my FF attacks on other stands not in base contact with my WE but still in base contact with other WEs in the same formation. 'You may choose to split these between close combat rolls and firefight rolls as you see fit, but close combat rolls will only hit enemy units in base contact, while firefight rolls will only hit units within 15cm that are not in base contact.'
Surely that (while admittedly ambiguous) point means that if I've got 3 knights in a unit, and they are in base contact with a unit of 4 ass marines, themselves all in base contact, I cannot use this rule? My group have always viewed it as FF attacks can only target (and be assigned to) other FFing units in the same combat, while all CC attacks can only be assigned to units that are themselves in CC.
Because this is possibly why i'm struggling in CCs. Are we interpreting this wrong?

-WoU

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Yes that rule should be read in conjunction with the regular assault rules, if two war engines are in a formation and both are engaged in cc, they can use their ff attacks to hit enemy units not in base contact with them, that rule is referring to how the exception to the regular engagement rules function rather than giving a new way in which war engines act in engagements, read as written it would make war engine formations extremely vulnerable to being engaged as all the opponent would need to do was btb all his troops on a single WE and none of the others would be able to ff them at all

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Yep. Let's use this as an example:



The Lancer on the far left is in BtB, negating the Wraithguard's FF attacks (they have to use CC). What 3.3.2 is saying is that the Lancer can choose to use its CC or FF because it's a WE. If it uses its CC, the hits would have to be allocated to the Wraithguard in BtB with it. If it uses its FF then the first hit would go on the closest unit not in BtB with it (the guardian to its right, in BtB with another Lancer).

Effectively, you should be keeping two separate pools of hits for each WE (CC and FF) and allocate them appropriately. This might result in some wasted hits, but your opponent has to allocate in a manner that they are all used, if possible. It's definitely more fiddly then a non-WE assault where all you have is a pool of hits (it doesn't matter if they were CC or FF or what units they came from).

Also note, because these Lancers charged they would get their Power Lance attacks because these are extra attacks in FF. The Lancer on the left can use it (it doesn't matter that it's in BtB with the Wraithguard) as there are units not in BtB with it, but within 15cm, that it has an LoS to.

Just because a WE is in BtB doesn't mean it has to use its CC. If there are enemy unit's within 15cm of it and there's a clear LoS to them it can use its FF on those units. However, if a WE has no enemy unit's not in BtB with it, then it has to use its CC (e.g., a single Warhound with 4 Assault Marines in BtB with it).

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Worth mentioning is also that normally (not talking WE here) firefight hits can hit anything, units in base to base and other FF units. Its just that units in base to base can not use their FF value...

Also you have one of the faster armies out there, no need to advance evenly across the board the first turn to be able to grab objectives. Also most of the Knights have a magic range of 45 cm if your up against infantry so unless you face a spaceship deploy like Dave and don't advance the next time you get assaulted. That way you will kill 4 activations for your marine opponent and only loose 1 yourself. You also forces him/her to make double moves to be able to shoot at you and thus get less hits.

Yes, the knights are untouchable clearly... (Sarcasm).

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Cheers guys. Thanks Dave for your example, that clears that up nicely. I take back all the mean things I ever said about Knights and lances in CC...

Time for some re-matches!

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