Better send steel legion back to experimental then

Like I said, could be an issue. Can't see myself wanting to field such an army in a tournament setting for the reasons I've stated - 1000 points is still 1000 points - but I'm willing to believe it. It'd be nice to be able to field just one (not five) so 0-1 would be fine by me. Same as some would like to see for the warhound.

Meh, it was only a suggestion.

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So I did a little research about the "Tau Five Aces" broken build.

The key point is that at that time they were DC2 War-Engines coming in at 175 points each.
Also for a while they were two railguns each with TK(1).

A single aircraft (one hit = dead) is DIFFERENT. And at 200 points for one.
Having two AX-1-0s for 350 (or 375 points) makes much more than 200 each a non-starter anyway?

So, entertaining discussion. I would only use AX-1-0s in numbers as a personal preference.
Too easy to not activate otherwise. So need a Shas'o which costs a lot for a re-roll.

Anyway Research Details:

Survey of Historical Lists – most of the Five Aces debate was in a context of DC2 and 2 x Railgun shots.

Tau 4.4.3. AX-1-0s were DC2 war-engines for 225 points, 1 x MW3+ TK(3).
Tau 4.3.1 AX-1-0s were DC2 at 1 or 2 for 175 pts ea, railguns 2 x MW3+ TK(1)
and Tau 4.2.8 and Tau 4.2.2
Tau 4.1 White Shark version, 2 for 350 pts, each DC2, railguns 2 x AT3+
Tau 4.0 White Sharks, 2 for 325 pts, each DC2, railguns 2 x AT3+

Tau 3.0 standard version of Tiger Shark only.

Some previous discussion at:

Talking occasionally heatedly

Recalling the bad old days

A battle report with tuned opposition

I could add it as a trial, but it's obviously the sort of unit that has to be changed with caution, both because of its high damage output and its controversial development history.

It's a unit that costs a lot, is notoriously unreliable and easy to kill, can't claim or contest, but is also powerful and almost an obligatory inclusion because of the TK gap it fills.

I'll go through the notes and post a reply later.

I'd be far less hesitant over single A-X- 1-0s than orcas with deflector shields

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Indeed, who wouldn't want to field one? As to easy to kill - this was the common view of aircraft in the early days of Epic. Thunderbolts for example were seen as worthless, dying quickly. Then it was noticed a few people never lost them and they were quite handy, now they are a nigh compulsory choice in most tourney armies. It turns out with long range enemy AA has problems getting you and combined with good AA (and the tau are possibly the best) fighters can't get you. The comments about the pair being too risky to activate - if used properly they should be a 2+ or at most 3+ and you have a re-roll. And every time they fly on there will probably be a dead superheavy. Things like air assaulting marines just have to accept the thunderhawks are dead once they land and if they become too prevailent landing craft would be unfieldable.

IIRC, in almost all the games I've played (using any list) AA has never been a deterrent to CAP/Intercepting fighters on key air elements - a concern sure, but never a deterrent. The reward outweighs the risk and AA5+ only does so much even under an umbrella. Given the prevalence of fighter cover in the game you almost always lose a bomber per game and this was the single reason I stopped taking the A-X-1-0. They did not return enough for the points before they died/failed to act.

That' my impression too. They look great on paper, but the times I've taken them, they really haven't been worth the investment in points.

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Indeed this has been my experience as well. I stopped using them after a few games for this reason. I have instead tried the spacecraft. It's reliable. Can't be shot down. Can't be hidden from. Can usually be used against two different formations turn 1. Costs about half the points of the AX-1-0 formation.

(If I would have started Tau development now then I would have made them more expensive but also more resilient. I would place it at about 2DC and a 5+ or or perhaps 4+ save in epic. 250-275pts. The AX-1 and regular Tiger Shark in aeronautica imperialis has two structure points and the same frontal armour as a thunderhawk. Another fitting comparison is the marauder (heavy marauder in epic) which has 3 structure points, but worse frontal armour.)

The point on more reliable and more points is a good one - it is very hard to 'fairly' point fliers because of the way they are bolted onto the game. You have to cost for their potential which is immense. On the AA if you are guarding a 350 point formation with one skyray you are making a mistake...

Meta also plays a part, if you allow intercepts of intercepts they get helped out by your barracuda.

But the trick with them I found was to hit things after the had moved up and your army was in place to cover, different from the deep strike unit some imagine it to be.

Field one, yes. Five, no. A pair, no.

There's a bit of exaggeration or glossing over in the above.

1. With 2+ initiative Tau will almost certainly need to use their reroll whether they have an aircraft or not. So using it has an opportunity cost. The SC comment therefore just doesn't cut it as it applies to every other formation too. The problem isn't just that the aircraft fail more (though they do - it's just a fact of life that aircraft get shot at, regardless of whether you "use them properly"). It's that when they fail they do literally nothing. At 200 that's OK. At 375 it's not.

2. Easy to kill - I wouldn't say easy as skyrays are good if they aren't dead or suppressed, but certainly not hard. It's one unit with 4+ armour. Let's get some perspective: it's as hard as one night wing except not as manoeuvrable to avoid flak.

3. "Every time they come on they kill a superheavy". Well now that just isn't true statistically. Even with markerlights it's only about a 75% ish chance for a pair. One AX, which is what we're discussing, would have about 1 in 3 chance, even if markerlit (and if it activates of course). So if 2 is powerful, 1 simply is not.


Yes it would be a good option, mainly because the tau list has very little MW or TK. Not because they're mega weapons like 200 point deathstrikes. Plenty of other formations are better candidates for auto include status, personally I would probably still pick a spaceship instead most of the time, I just would like to get the models on the table. Certainly most of the batreps I have seen have proved them to be under performers. By all means restrict it if you're worried about spam (and what I've read so far is sketchy in support of that anyway), but I just don't see what the clamour is over 1 TK shot for 200 points.

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It is actually posisble to avoid getting shot at a lot if the rest of your army is upporting you...



? Really - I thought with a ML they do on average 2AT hits and 3 1/3 TK hits on targets in the open? (2 twin Railcannons, 2 missile pods, 4 seekers.) Should have specified the small superheavies that give Tau a hard time, not the big titans that upset everyone.

(Note I had it in my head they were 350 for 2 not 375.)
I would pick one over a spaceship because this way i can shoot terminators etc and don't have only a 1 turn deterent for landing WE's and similar. Well, actually I would probably pick both, but I like spaceships

A restriction on numbers should be the last resort in list, it is basically an admission that you couldn't balance it, so here is a hard cap instead (which in many cases seems to mean '1', not '0-1').

This.
If 5x TK(D3) plane based attacks are effective on a turn it can literally rip the heart out of some armies.
It would be easy to build a Tau army with excellent 60cm range AA to keep the flyers protected (I regularly used to have 5/6 Skyrays scattered about the army) and they have plenty of long ranged firepower to suppress ground based AA (which the A-X-10's shouldn't really be flying into as they are not a deep strike unit).

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This is how I feel about the Plasma Destructor but it remains pretty much unfettered even with a reduction to 5x MW2+.

To be fair, If effective are the key words here when we're talking about the A-X-1-0 however.


I always find flak units well placed to avoid suppression these days. You can spend a couple of turns trying to take out AA units if they're embedded with armour and still not kill them.

Seeing the A-X-1-0 teamed with the new rail gun rule Hammerheads needs to be explored.

Depends very much on what army you're facing. A small formation of firestorms and falcons hardly compares to 13 Russes and a hydra ..

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The latter of course only has 45cm range, so unless it is at the edge of the formation you are attacking, it is out of range (note you never fly 'at' formations, you should aim to clip them so you avoid the flak on your way out as well as on the way in, assuming you don't plan to hit such a formation til the flak is supressed or it breaks. I could draw pictures with triangles and other shapes showing the position of flak in a formation relative to your approach and exit, but I lack the skill I prefer hitting warhounds and other flak-less formations however. The threat there is the modbile flak that can chase you and it is these formations that are easy meat for Tau typically if you have the markerlights and support missiles.