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Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!

 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:07 pm 
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Precisely why there is the requirement of different geographical groups testing lists, so that regional rules interpretations can be accounted for

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:12 pm 
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I can't see that kind of thing being an issue, I think I originally blew it up more than it should have been, I think it was quite a revelation to me, seeing how Onyx and his crew play LoS differently

it's all a big mixing pot and overall I think it's an extra test for a list if two groups of people with different regional rules can agree on a definition of balanced

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:14 pm 
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All that being said, it is probably worth stating as part of a batrep any significant mentions / decisions made during the 5 minute warmup. Use your best judgement but things like LOS/LOF rules are probably worth commenting on. For instance, "LOS terrain effects were infinity to the stars not TLoS" is good to note. "Event touching the terrain feature counts as in cover in this game" is kinda interesting but probably not all that important to note a few millimeters of change in position granted the cover bonus.

Edit: Dave's point about Scout screening AC is another important one for air assault heavy / centric lists

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:15 pm 
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Getting all the groups to play exactly the same isn't going to happen. We can't force people to play it one way or another, and thinking we can is just silly. Trying to force people the same way by adding new FAQs that a significant portion of the community isn't happy with will only serve to fracture the community more. That's what we don't want.

We all agreed to take a stance that if a consensus can't be met (scout screening of AC for instance) then it should be something that's brought up in the 5-min warmup.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:16 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Getting all the groups to play exactly the same isn't going to happen. We can't force people to play it one way or another, and thinking we can is just silly. Trying to force people the same way by adding new FAQs that a significant portion of the community isn't happy with will only serve to fracture the community more. That's what we don't want.

We all agreed to take a stance that if a consensus can't be met (scout screening of AC for instance) then it should be something that's brought up in the 5-min warmup.


^This^

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:18 pm 
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The last couple of posts just makes me even more skeptical about the format of the report.
Why do we need the action by action breakdown, (that I find so boring) when we do not demand to know if we allow barging Thunderhawks or if they count terrain a certain way etc. etc.
A good analysis, army lists and the result should be enough to help the AC to make the list balanced...
Another problem is the uncertainty of what happens to the list after modifications. If I spend 10-20 hours writing 6 reports then it would be nice to see them count toward development. Right now I have no idea because if the AC changes something my efford might have been in vain. The system suggested above would be a very good solution. Tweek the list = play some more games but not 18...


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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:33 pm 
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uvenlord wrote:
Why do we need the action by action breakdown, (that I find so boring) when we do not demand to know if we allow barging Thunderhawks or if they count terrain a certain way etc. etc.


I would think it would be obvious from the report whether something like that is allowed, ie if it happened it's allowed.

18 games is for first time approval. After that, there's no playtesting demand other than those necessary to satisfy the AC and Tim/Steve.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:29 am 
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Ok, but do you need 18 games since the last modification to the list? i.e. does making a change after game 17 reset the counter to 0?

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:36 am 
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If it isn't approved, yes. But why do it at game 17? Why not wait for the approval for one more game and then talk with Tim/Steve afterwords for a quick update?

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:46 am 
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if the change is "this units gun increases from AP5+/AT5+ to AP4+/AT5+ then no, i'd say one or two games from each group should be sufficient, provided that the changed unit features enough in each game for its change to make note (full activation by activation battle reports would not really be needed in this case)

if the change is "this formerly common element has had its capabilities significantly altered" then yes, it should absolutely reset the entire playtest count. If thunderhawks suddenly halved their transport capacity, then any marine data that intersects with the old version of the thunderhawk would become pretty much useless and the list should be considered at best, newly developmental again, if not bumped down to experimental depending on the severity of the change

Dave: thats a very good point. we should absolutely be encouraging our AC's to "game the system" as much as possible when it comes to approval of lists. These are supposed to be final products with full backing of the community and its appointed representatives, so only the very laxest of quality testing will do.

Any change, no matter how approved the list may be, should impact its approval. no major change should be able to be ramrodded through by a "quick discussion between the AC and one ERC member"
given some AC's opinions on what constitutes a "minor change" I dont think i'm comfortable with any change being subject to oversight by only 1 person. There's already enough instances of AC's doing what they want, regardless of how the community feels, without that becoming the norm. Especially since there is apparently no concern that ERC members can also hold AC positions for which they have oversight

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:55 am 
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Are you incapable of making a point without the tactless sarcasm?

Quote:
no major change should be able to be ramrodded through by a "quick discussion between the AC and one ERC member"


Absolutely, that's why there's a system in place to stop it. The Human/Xenos chair can approve the change if they deem it minor. If they do but the ERC feels it's not, it can be vetoed.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:20 am 
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Ok guys, "balance" is obviously difficult to define objectively, though we obviously try, hence the call for Play-tests. This is not a new problem - I remember Sotec despairing about the batreps received for the Eldar because the amount of terrain used varied so much (let alone how people played it). Ultimately he only regarded games from his own group as valid test.

So, while not applying strict rules, I agree with several people who suggest that there should be certain guidelines. For my part they include
  1. Fighting against an agreed list of "core" lists - to be agreed but most are obvious
  2. Use standard list sizes 3K, 4K, (5K if possible)
  3. Use a standard table size, tournament scenario and amount of terrain
  4. Describe How "contentious" aspects were played - scout screen, LoS, etc
  5. What the bat-rep is attempting to test if anything
  6. Reasoned conclusions
    Any thoughts on others?
I also agree that where possible different groups and geographies should be used because they will inevitably provide slightly different perspectives.

Preferably people should try to test extreme situations to see how un-balanced a list is. And people should be aware that there are still anomalies in the "core" lists - consider the recent debate on spamng Marine Scouts.


Last edited by Ginger on Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:32 am 
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LordotMilk wrote:
@Dobbsy: I suppose your last post is looking at you straight in the face with regards to Space Wolves.... ;)

Nice in theory but I'm only one person/play group. I can't get a list approved on my own even as the AC....
In regards to all the lists under my view as AC, I just don't have the time available to play them all - a new son in the house makes that virtually impossible right now and like I said, I'm just one player.

Besides, the SW are virtually finished. With a tiny tweak this year they will be put up for Approved next year now that I know the rough timings for the TP adjustments each year.


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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:20 pm 
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The sort of compromise that Ginger outlined is probably the best that could be hoped for in realistic terms.

I must say, however, that I think that there should be a standardised set of line of sight rules/terrain in the core rulebook. I thought that the rule was as follows:

Quote:
Line Of Fire: The line of fire is a straight line drawn from
the shooting unit to one unit in the target formation. The
line of fire is blocked by terrain features such as buildings,
hills, woods, etc. Weapons higher up can often see over
any terrain that is lower down. Buildings, rubble, woods,
fortifications and the like don’t block the line of fire to or
from units that are in the terrain itself unless the line of
fire passes through more than 10cms of the terrain
feature (ie, you can shoot 10cms ‘into’ a terrain feature,
but the line of fire is still blocked to units on the other
side). The only units that can block the line of fire are war
engines (see 3.0). Other units do not block the line of fire
for friend or foe.


Is this not the case? Given that this seems to be a core rule, I don't think that it's unreasonable to ask that play testing is conducted using this rule.

Anyway, the point is that I still feel that calls for play testing to balance armies are undermined by the ongoing problem of players not adhering to the same set of core rules. I agree that it's not possible to make people play to the rules though, which is why the only way forward is compromise, assuming list development is viewed as a priority.

Were it left up to me, I'd just ensure that all the core lists are approved, and then not worry about developing all the others.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to make an effort on playtesting the lists!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:47 am 
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So we've now got the Tyranids and Titan Legions lists approved and in to the next tournament pack. What should the community focus on developing and getting approved next?

There's tons of varient lists, but it would be good to get the basic core armies approved first. The missing core armies from 40k are:
Sisters of Battle
Squats
Daemons

Daemons has seen hardly any development so should be discounted. It comes down to Sisters of Battle or Squats next. Any preference from those willing to playtest? I don't have either army but can proxy them and get 6 New Zealand battle reports in if other groups will commit to doing so too.


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