Derp. My fault. I was using an older list and swapped out a couple things. I was rolling well for my Fightas, but yeah, I don't think that extra squad won me the game or anything.

I was thinking about my comments earlier regarding it being out of character for Marines to just sit around, and another thing occurred to me - Marines have an excellent save as it is, and sticking them in bunkers only gains them an additional +1. Yeah, that's not a bad thing, but I feel it's kind of unnecessary. Having IG in a bunker means a lot - you go from a nothing to a 3+. That's raising their survivability from 0% to 66.66% and that's HUGE.

Long story short, I see the value of static emplacements for IG, but not for SMs.


I think something modeled after the 40K Imperial Bastion would be cool. I was working on a scaled down version in CAD, but since I was spitballing the dimensions (I don't own the model) I eventually gave up...

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I agree, I've made that point myself, I had considered marine bunkers giving reinforced armour or an invulnerable too, alternatively it may be worth investigating weaponising marine bunkers to make up for lost mobility in giving up vehicles....

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Maybe give them a FF value matching rhinos which are 6+ IIRC. Maybe they should provide fearless to the occupier of the bunker?

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I think that's a function of the wonky cover save mechanic used in 40k and Epic. I've felt that it was a very awkward way to handle things since the rule was first revealed in 3rd ed. 40k, but, I guess it's here to stay.

Having said that, however, -1 to hit and a 3+ save is nothing to sneeze at. Reinforced feels... powerful to me. Not sure if OTT or not, but, definitely powerful. Having said that, however, in all honesty, I suppose two separate save rolls is how cover for marines ought to be handled anyway. So, perhaps it makes sense. But how do you make that work within the confines of the rules for cover?

Hmm. The more I think about it, the more appropriate a 4+RA save feels appropriate for the sacrifice in mobility. Very tough to shift them, but not impossible, and I think accurately reflects how difficult it would be to root space marines out of a fortified position.

Would you then apply the same to the Bastion, then?

Weaponizing the bunkers doesn't seem right to me. The tacticals have their missile launchers that they can fire out of them in any case, and I think that's enough, especially considering they will be sustained firing more often than not.

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TBH I kinda feel that a defensive list could really do with a different set of objectives than the normal ones available to a standard list, I just haven't been able to come up with a way to implement the idea fairly yet. I'm just not the rules boffin that a rethink on this idea requires.

The way I see it each player needs to be able to deal with 5-6 physical objectives (defending his own 3 and capturing the others). If one side's designed to hold only one half of the board then the objectives they require to win the game need to reflect that.

You sure that's necessary?

Let's say the Fists have DTF and TSNP. All they have to do is contest one enemy objective for a 2 - 0 shut out. If they can get BTS, it's even easier. I think a list with strong defenses that can actually hold onto their own table half and their own objectives will play out fine without any extra incentives.

Or, I suppose you could make it so that DTF counts for two objectives? But then this seems unbalanced. If you were to balance it by saying that they got two points for DTF and no points for TAH and Blitz, then you *really* encourage a static, boring style of play.

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I have zero interest in mucking about with victory conditions, I appreciate the idea but getting a list approved is hard enough as it is, without having to justify very significant game-changing special rules

I've been in discussions with a couple of players and am probably going to try a different approach to army building in my next few playtest games, I'd appreciate tests on the list as it currently is, then if experiences are similar to CaptPiett and his crew, we can look at changing how fortifications work in the context of this list

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I don't know if you want to go about changing fortifications in the context of the list either. The problem isn't the fact that fortifications break the list or make the IFs too powerful, it's that being static kind of goes against the functionality of the IFs and SMs in general. It would be silly to say that "fortifications confer a 3+ save to anyone, unless you're using IFs - they get an Invulnerable save." That just bogs down the game in army-specific rules.

I'd certainly allow a few more games before any major changes were made - I've only played one game against them, and mistakes were made on both sides. It could have been completely different if Capt Piett decided to leave his fortifications behind in turn 2 - odds are, if he took the offensive, he would have wiped the table with my army (I'm always the optimist.)

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I'm with Kyuss about changing the victory conditions in the list itself. 1. That's huge thing to do. 2. The victory conditions are part of the scenario being played, not a list. That being said, we really need as a community, to get additional scenarios bundled as a supplement toot sweet.

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I'll add my voice to those who oppose fiddling with victory conditions.

I have a suggestion of much smaller scope I've been considering for a little bit:
Is there anything in the fluff that says a thunderfire can't fit in the back of a rhino? I would suggest, for the same reason I think Achilles upgrades to tac/dev FMs would be good, that you allow thunderfires as upgrades to tacs/devs as well, and have them take two transport slots. That way, the IF can take more IC firepower with them. Maybe 0-2 thunderfires per FM as an upgrade? It would be cheaper than using the Achilles as well. What little I've read of them (from that unfortunate book Legion of the Damned, which didn't tell us anything about the SM chapter in the title, go figure) has them in singletons
Just a thought. I agree more testing of the list in its current form is the first priority however.

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Divergent thoughts ahead...

Currently we have:
Techmarine CH power weapon (base contact) assault weapon, MW EA+1 Invulnerable Save, Leader

I'd suggest we give just Invulnerable Save, not Leader.

It would have an interesting inverse to the Iron Hands Vet Officer character which gives Leader but not IS.

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Per the SM Codex


It would be kind of like mounting a Tarantula on a Rhino. So, no, there is nothing fluffy that justifies using a Rhino. Also, according to the codex, (unless I'm reading it wrong) it looks like the Thunderfire would move at the same rate as the Techmarine controlling it, so movement should be increased to 15cm. I'll have to confirm this though - I don't have access to the 40K rulebook at the moment.

EDIT: It looks like Tarantulas can be moved (in 40K) by Rhinos, so disregard my comment above. In the fluff, the Tarantula is moved via Rhino, Thunderhawk, etc and assembled by a Techmarine.

EDIT 2: The Thunderfire does indeed move at the rate of the Techmarine, so the speed should probably be increased from 10cm to 15cm. A cool thing about the 40K version is that you can fire air-burst, surface, or below-ground. Below-ground causes the unit that is hit to take a difficult terrain test. Not much use in Epic, but pretty neat, nonetheless.

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I believe that's represented as the Disrupt OR Ignore Cover per attack deal

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I wasn't sure if that was the air-burst/surface burst or a combo of the two and the subterranean burst.

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My interpretation of marines is that they are masters at whatever aspect of war they wish to engage in. They are elite troops, and they do have a lot of tools available to them when acting in a shock troop capacity (and are perhaps best in that role), but, there are numerous fluff instances of marines holding out defensively against vastly numerically superior forces.

I don't think it necessarily goes against fluff to make "defense specialist" marines.

Also, I'm not sure that having a special rule allowing Imperial Fists to make better use of bunkers is going to bog the game down in army specific special rules any more than "Frenzied" or "Pack Mentality" do. It can simply be a footnote army rule at the bottom of the list something along the lines of "Defense Specialists - Imperial Fist infantry may make a 4+ re-rollable cover save when inside of bunkers or bastions"

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