Two pieces of feedback -



I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but have to express genuine surprise that the Fire Prism costs have been reduced.

This chart is from the "Are Hammerheads under-performing" thread and shows how efficient a tank killer the Fireprism is.


Even without modifiers, every 2.4 firing should kill a Russ or Predator, and every 1.8 should kill a 5+ armour tank. The full comparison of this vs other tanks is in this thread viewtopic.php?f=23&t=26880 but the brief version is it is 3.33 times better at killing Leman Russes without modifiers than even the Tau Hammerhead, and IMHO looked very cheap at 65pts.

DISCLAIMER: Please note I just bought an Eldar army, and now own 4 Fire Prisms.

The second piece of Feedback is regarding the Void Spinner's price reduction.

The Void Spinner is fantastic. To understand how good it is, you can see an in-depth look at this vs the other major artillery formations in the game here:

viewtopic.php?f=82&t=26835&start=15

The short version is that not only is the Void Spinner one of the best units in the entire game, but it is a unit so good that it is a reason to take a specific army. It is the one single reason that I would play Biel Tan over Iyanden or Ulthwe, for example.

Those offer a pretty compelling argument against it having a price decrease.

I recommend decoupling its upgrade cost from the less stellar Engines of Vaul, for example:

Engine of Vaul Troupe One of the following (Cobra, Scorpion or Storm Serpent, or Void Spinner).
May also take up to two of the following: Cobra, Scorpion or Storm Serpent, for +200 points each or Void Spinner for +250 points each.

I hope that feedback is helpful, and again I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade.
Thanks

DISCLAIMER: Please note I am posting this as someone just bought an Eldar army, and who now owns 3 Void Spinners!

To add to matt's point (and no doubt pour fuel on the EUK/NetEA fire ) sustained usage of the VS in the EUK biel-tan list led to them *increasing* its points value to 275 as it was considered too powerful at 250.....

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I don't support a points reduction for ANYTHING in the Biel-Tan list. It's overpowered as is.

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Not saying that you are wrong with this comparison but I tend to compare it to the Falcon instead and I see no real justification for it to cost 15 points more. It's better at long range but the falcon has higher FF to support the Eldar playstyle so I usually take the falcons over the Fire Prisms...
So what I'm basically saying is that it is hard to compare units from different armies without context(also hasn't the hammerhead better range and save?)

I would like to see Void Spinners go up to 275 and 200 is too cheap for an additional Void Spinner too, it should probably be 225-250.

The real comparison should be against Falcons, though, as the question is "should a Fire Prism cost more than a Falcon?" when picking units for a Sword of Vaul formation. Spectrar_Ghost posted a breakdown of the numbers for those two units in this thread: http://taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/view ... 24&t=24167

Let's not get too excited, the VS points drop is only for the second and third unit in the formation. Nobody ever takes them, including the VS, so 500 for two can hardly be said to be too cheap.

As it happens I also think they should be 275 for one and an not too bothered about trying to encourage multiples. But TBH its hard for anyone to "test" what is the correct points value for them. People take then because they are the only unit that can fulfil a certain role so perfectly, a role that provides a big benefit for eldar. Remember the "alpha strike" thread? People will probably take VS up to the point where it seriously damages the activation count or power in other important areas (assault or fire support). As long as he Phoenix is so ludicrously overpriced, that is.

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I don't think that it's overpowered at all myself. I'll add the caveat that I don't use Void Spinners and never will, so if that's the problem unit, and it has been complained about before, then let's deal with that, and leave the rest of the list alone.

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this crosses over into the hammerhead thread a little, but I think certain eldar units are a little strong for their points (falcons for example) and combined with the triple-retain and hit-and-run rules, when pulled off correctly, Eldar can be a very frustrating army to deal with in the hands of a strong player and it often feels that they are overpowered when you're not used to them

that being said, I *love* killing eldar stuff, I really do..... mmm satisfying

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Yes it is rather satisfying catching a formation of falcons poking out from behind cover, killing a couple with whatever odds and sods you've got on hand, and watching them flee.

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Right, but, here's the deal - I've never beat Eldar in Epic. Never. And I am not trying to toot my own horn, here, but I am a strong player. Not only have I never beat Eldar, in every game, I've been trounced by them. Now, I know what you're thinking - this guy is just looking to blame his losses on the list and not himself. I don't think that's the case. My record vs Eldar compared with my record against everything else is statistically anomalous. I just don't lose this often or this badly to anything else.

They've got everything. Speed. Durability. Numbers. I can't find any drawbacks anywhere. Double-retain, hit and run, skimmers, webway portal, free Avatar, etc. The list feels like a fanboy creation, frankly. It's to the point where I don't even like playing against them and I find myself rolling my eyes numerous times throughout the game.

So, whatever. This isn't a subject I am passionate enough about to make a big stink over, but I think Biel Tan are way overpowered, and talk of reducing points anywhere in that list sounds crazy to me.

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that's your experience, and I'm sorry it's been so negative, as I said, when Eldar are played right they are a complete nightmare, but they can be beaten, I also don't think they're particularly durable.... wraithguard can be tough but outside of the Iyanden list they're relatively low in numbers

I don't want to turn this into a tactics discussion and patronise anyone, but in my experience if you let the eldar dictate the game, you will lose, and probably quite hard

check out Steve Gullick's record with Biel-Tan on the EUK site, guy has something like an 80% win record with them, he won Britcon (4k tournament) last year with 5 wins and a draw, I couldn't make the event myself but in our practice games leading up to it, I nailed his army with marines 3 games in a row.... he said the main weakness his list (and probably most eldar in general) was that it's vulnerable to a list that really gets stuck in, and with spacecraft, podding devs and three lots of terminators in thunderhawks played really aggressively, I was able to keep him on the back foot and prevent him from carrying out his plan

I'll also say this isn't me showing off, in the first game I think my being rash and air-assaulting with my first two activations kinda won me the game by accident. Steve is a *very* strong player and much better than me all-round, he normally gives me a hiding when we play, but my experiences against his BT which I have a decent record against in our club games, makes me feel they're tough when they 'lock in' with their plan and start running rings around you, but disrupt that and you CAN win

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Right, see, that's the thing. I've tried that. My last game against them, in fact, was me drop podding and Thunderhawk assaulting all over their back line. I got right in their face from my first activation. Didn't help. I made a strong showing at the start, but then simply got swarmed and overwhelmed. Most of my army was dead by middle of turn 2.

It's easy to say "don't let them dictate the pace of the game", but far harder to do that in actual practice due to their speed, webway portals, double retain, high SR, great initiative, teleporting avatar, and skimmer assault shenanigans. Aren't marines supposed to be the ultimate in dictating the pace of the game? In actual fact, it's the Eldar who are.

I'm sure at some point I will "solve" them, sort of, but the fact remains I just don't like playing against them because I feel they are overpowered. The fact that anyone, no matter how strong a player, has an 80% win rate with them, says a lot to me and sort of proves my point. Does anyone else have a comparable record with another army?

I've got a league game against Biel-Tan coming up in a couple weeks. I'll batrep it and try to illustrate my frustrations more articulately. Who knows, I may win, but I've just sort of planned my league strategy around assuming that I will take an L against the Biel-Tan.

Edit: I'm not the only one in the L.A. group who feels this way. Our general consensus is that the Biel-Tan list is very powerful.

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Armies Played:
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Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Steve actually has a 70% win ratio with BT and a 65% win ratio with marines, most other armies are around 50-60% win ratios for him, DaveThomas has a 70% win ratio with marines, although thats a mix of all variants, mike thomas has a 77% win percentage with chaos marines although be hasn't played as many games with them as the others.... there are plenty of other players with win ratios in the 60% range

Overall BT as a list has a 38% win percentage while codex marines have a comparable 36%, both have played a reasonably high number of games (several hundred each) black legion and tau both have higher win percentages

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