Soon, you'll get the chance to use Thunderhawk transporters to use them too.

And I am lobbying for Redeemer range boost so it can get some play outside of air assault.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Hopefully to the first.

The Redeemer isn't going to be changed though, it's stats were settled 5+ years ago and it's used in multple lists including the approved Salamanders list. It's a good unit as is with 15cm range anyway, including when used on the ground, it just has a different niche - better and FF and good attacking infantry in cover and light vehicles.

At this point in time there will be only two changes to the BA list if people all agree which it seems most are OK with - the THT inclusion and the adjustment of the Storm Raven.

There's a possibility of the Sanguinary Guard upgrade addition but I would like to see more debate on it by the masses before we include this. I'll start a new thread about them specifically.

You are changing the THT in the BT list for no other reason than you do not like the approved for 5+ years version from Hena.

At least for the Redeemer, my argument is that it is not a competitive choice, something the Salamanders AC apparently has come to realize himself.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

The downtrodden and nameless members of the intouchable caste salute you, Oh Caesar!

For what it's worth, there is a perfectly acceptable way to work this in, fluffwise and mechanics wise.

BAs usually field more assault marines than other chapters, while still respecting the Codex astartes company structure, because they field their 1st company veterans either as Terminators or as assault troops.

Therefore, the +2assault dudes upgrade would actually be explained by adding veterans to the detachment, which could be statted as upgraded assault dudes instead of just regular dudes.

So, the current +2 assault dudes could be replaced by sanguinary guard/honor guard.

However, their most distinctive feature (apart from artificer armor) is power weapons. I am personally in favour of working out the representation of non-gauntlet power weapons in EA, but I understand this is a heated topic (see the debates about banshees and Genestealers).

Also, if the upgrade sees higher stats (and cost), the problem will be its viability. It is already hard to justify taking an upgrade at all.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

I don't really get what you mean by this. I'm guessing you're refering to MW EAs granted by power fists but, as they're not any different to normal CC attacks other than the macro, I don't see why other melee weapons would nees some additional special rule.

As you surmise, I am guessing LotM is suggesting applying some special rule ("assassin", "Inf MW") to make the powerfist slightly more powerfull . . .

(. . . and I crawl rapidly back into my bunker and duck . . . )

Not exactly. I am saying the BA sanguine/honor guard is yet another example of a troop type that would require the inf-MW special rule (along with Banshees, Bloodletters and Genestealers to name a few).

The development of that rule, and its worth, is debatable, though I, for one, like some others, am in favour of it.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

I think a range of more than 15cm for a Flame weapon is really hard to justify. I don't know if it's competitive or not since I haven't used it, but, if it's not competitive, I would think a points reduction would be more appropriate than increasing the range of the flamers.

Wow, I didn't even know there was debate about creating a MW-infantry weapon class. I think it's a great idea, and would be appropriate for Sanguinary Guard.

In fact, one of the first thoughts I had as I read the Epic Armageddon rules for the first time around eight years ago was - why do Macro Weapons affect vehicles and troops equally? It made no sense to me and honestly still doesn't but I've sort of just accepted it.

It would add an awful lot more depth to the game if there was a distinction. I do understand the resistance to the idea of changing a core rule like that, but, I really think it makes a lot more sense.

Well, in any case, I don't want to derail this Blood Angels thread, so I will leave it at that. However, if it is ever implemented, then Sanguinary Guard would be perfect for it.

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

I don't think we need to start putting in special infantry weapons to represent SG. Stats alone will do that if we use the stats that XM has proposed. i.e.

2 units 150pts
Move 30cm
3+ Armor Save
5+ FF
3+ CC
EA1 MW
Fearless
Frenzied

I see them as fast moving "light Terminators"

Exactly! Light terminators. And, sorry, I didn't mean to derail the thread.

You certainly can also argue in favor of straight MW weapons for SG because they do have access to tank busting infernus pistols, and the squad leader can wield a power fist. So, sure, it makes sense.

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Powerfists and infernus pistols could both sit under the same CC MW stat given the short range of the pistols.

Yes, that's what I was saying

Edit: Oh, and thanks a lot for taking this proposal so seriously! That's pretty cool!

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

The stats sound fine, but why go down the upgrade route? It seems less complicated, easier to balance and generally a lot better as a separate formation and since Dante's Sanguinary Guard (who's role is to be his personal bodyguard) is 30 strong a formation of 6 would be appropriate background-wise when the chapter is out in force, as in an epic game.

I would want them to be deadly and a bit tougher than regular marines, but in an epic game not that hard to kill. This would be the case with a separate formation of them and a host of flying gold angels would stand out from red footslogging marines. If they're an upgrade others in the formation can take hits for them and they become much more survivable and annoying. As a separate formation including the supreme they'd be quite likely to be the BTS which would be appropriate for the chapter master.

That's a strong case, Glyn, and very persuasive. I am inclined to agree that SG deserve their own formation.

Maybe post your argument in this new thread? viewtopic.php?f=73&t=26651

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists