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Steel Legion Feedback

 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:58 pm 
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As a complete outsider on this, I always thought that artillery companies tended to be used in much larger format games and were priced accordingly - so they probably should be as rare as hen's teeth at the 3K level of most games. Also separate batteries are generally considered better for the points value, which is why they are far more prevalent.

Given that the models do get onto the table in one formation or another, what is the actual problem here?


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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:36 pm 
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Rug wrote:
From experience I find my Basilisks considerably more survivable than Manticores, it part due to the armour which is statistically far better, but also due to the perceived threat they pose. The fact that indirect fire anywhere on the table is available every turn and they survive to hold objectives at the end of the game makes Basalisks compare very well against Manticores which are very hit and miss. People seem to be forgetting how disappointing Manticores can be! Deathstrikes are my "hit or miss" unit of choice as feelings towards them are more extreme pre and post firing than Manticores and they're cheaper. With the Int and SR of I rarely put mor than one "hit or miss unit in a list", they're too easy to knock out.


25% more isn't twice as much, but it's nothing to sneeze at either. Psychology also plays in, of course - I imagine that the Manticore's higher top-end effect (disrupt, potential for more barrage points) would make opponents worry more about them than the more consistent basliisks.


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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:45 pm 
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as I understand it, if you score 6 hits on some marines, on average, 3 will die, if it's guardsmen 6 will die, therefore marines are twice as resilient (you would need twice the hits to wipe them out)

if you score 6 hits on an artillery company, you would kill 4 basilisks on average vs 5 manticores, therefore the basilisks are only 25% more resilient

if they were twice as difficult to kill, you would expect half the number to die to an equivalent number of hits

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:25 pm 
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I am not certain there is any debate here.

Everyone is in agreement that Manticores are better than Basilisks, yet that Basilisks are more resilient.

Does someone not agree with Rug's proposal to make the artillery battery 225 points for 3 Basilisks or Bombards, +25 for 3 Manticores?

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:29 pm 
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Rug wrote:
We're splitting hairs. Twice the number of Basalisks survive compared to the number of Manticores, ergo they are "twice as survivable", this is very significant when we consider how many hits are generally generated by a formation shooting in a 3k game and that a Battery only has three models in it.


Well, it's not really important, but let's say an artillery company suffers 9 hits. There are twice as many left if they are basilisks (3 vs 1.5) but the company is still reduced to stragglers and is most likely broken (6 dead vs 7.5 dead).

If they rally the basilisks are more effective, which is significant - here's where the 25% more survivable being important comes in. But I'd expect more from something that's "twice as survivable", especially when the difference is small enough that it will often be lost in the noise of dice rolls.


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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:51 pm 
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Quote:
Does someone not agree with Rug's proposal to make the artillery battery 225 points for 3 Basilisks or Bombards, +25 for 3 Manticores?

Yes, me.
I think Bombards are worth only 200pts.

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:00 pm 
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I think bombards are on the fine line, overpriced at 225, but underpriced at 200...... I've had reasonable success with them and would be happy to see them at 225

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:31 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
I think bombards are on the fine line, overpriced at 225, but underpriced at 200......


I'd agree with this despite my limited experience. I can see the point but I'm not sure Manticores are 50 points better.


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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Feedback
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:26 pm 
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I think that the proposal with 225 + 25 for Manticors will fit well. Maybe bombards are overpriced a bit then, but 200 is a little bit to cheap. Although it would be playtestet.


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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Feedback
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:48 pm 
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You guys'll agree with me after a bit of testing. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Feedback
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:34 pm 
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I actually don't doubt that!


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