Hi!

Let's go through all the points.

1. Crew survival. Its easier now to get XP and a lower cost to get honors. The elimination of vulnerable front location makes the titan far more tough. Sure head shots will be common, but remember that plasma and upgrades make shields more powerful, not to mention armor. Also, you can now PICK upgrades. I'd pick the ejection system first and thus lower crew mortality.

I'd probably test it as is to see how hard (or not it is).

2. Blessed by the machine god. Great question. The player could resolve rolls in any order to his choosing and advantage. So if reactor was offline, I'd try to re-roll that first. If the re roll failed then your out of luck, but if successful you could then fix the shields. I wanted honor to be VERY effective. Using this honor any restricted way would reduce its value.

3. Tactical genius. Normally you get to move once and fire one. With this skill, you could move the titan TWICE, just no two moves one after the other. In other words, move it once, move another unit, then move again. Same in the shooting phase. Shoot once, then use a different unit and shoot the titan again. In case of a grandmaster it would move THREE times in the movement phase, and shoot three times in the shooting phase, as long as they are not one after another. Of course it is just for one turn per game. Clearer?

4. Emperor Guide Me. It would give the volcano cannot two shots (not three) and it would scatter less. Very powerful, but remember a couple of things. With plasma shields are more easily repaired AND you could use over shield "testudo" at the risk of melting you shield generators AND no more plasma reactor in the front. There is no question it a valuable skill, but titans with plasma can move and shoot in ways the old titans could not and defense is better. Also it is only one weapon system with the upgrade, you could always blow it off to remove the advantage.

This would be another one I'd keep my eye on when testing.

5. Masterwork Plasma Reactor. Great question! The bonus plasma would NOT count towards the amount for plasma overload. Only the normal plasma generation roll counts for overload. These bonus ones can be used safely.

6. Increased Shielding. Good compromise. One roll at games start. 1-3 extra shield. I'll leave an option for those whom like some uncertainty.

7. Augmented ammo feed. Hmmm. Perhaps two plasma for extra shots, per weapon? So your extreme example would need 8 plasma (not likely or safe) and three for extra plasma shots? I think it would balance it. thoughts?

Primarch

Looking good so far. Don't feel you have to rush this. Take your time.

Agreed about Titan Missions. Holding objectives is what Infantry are for (among other things). Titans are on the field to destroy things. Sometimes the best way to do that is to just stand and fire, but being mobile is important too. It can also be a matter of play style. Just because it's not your preferred style, doesn't mean it's wrong.

The Chaos Rewards are very in keeping with the flavor of Chaos. As an option, one could have to roll a 1dx where X equals the level of reward that would otherwise be received. Overall these look good. One exception leaps out at me on a second look. Yes, you said they are supposed to be a bit over, but this one seems overly powerful compared to the other Chaos Head abilities.

The Tzeentch Head power seems horribly over-powered when applied to a target that is a Knight. The ability should not be able to change a unit into something not only that could have a higher point cost than the original unit, but that is a Greater Daemon and all that goes with that. Possibly turning it into a Chaos Spawn might be better. Even so, there should probably be allowance for a Psychic Save if the unit has one and it's better than the unit's armor save. Also, for lesser units, you say "transformed into Pink Horrors". Plural. How many Horrors is one unit turned into? Does it vary by point cost? Or was that just a typo.

Just saw The Bissler's comments and your replies. A few comments thereon.

Blessed by the Machine God. If I'm reading the initial point, and your reply, correctly what you mean is: "Once per game the player may use this ability to gain re-rolls for all failed repair checks for one entire turn. Any specific system or shield only gains one re-roll." Is this a clearer version of what you meant?

Masterwork Plasma Reactor. Perhaps it would be simpler to say that this ability increases this Titan's maximum Plasma limit by 2 (average roll) or 3 (maximum roll), rather than "ignore these points".

Augmented Ammo Feed. I don't really like the random element here. Seems unbalanced somehow. How about for every two shots the weapon would normally get (whether from Plasma expenditure or just normal weapon stats), it receives one bonus shot. This would cause the benefit to scale with the weapon. Note that bonus shots gained would only depend on baseline shots, not modified by this ability or any other. For example, Tim the Titan takes this upgrade for a weapon that has three shots. He gets two bonus shots, for a total of five. If Tim takes this upgrade a second time, he gets two more bonus shots, not three, for a total of seven shots.

Emperor Guide Me. Scattering less is what he meant by "three times better". Perhaps this ability should be OR rather than AND. That is, an additional shot OR better accuracy, chosen at the time of firing. Also, instead of the wording "most favorable" it should say that the player may select one of the two rolls to use. I say this because there will be situations where the one that is "most favorable" won't be apparent until after the location's save is rolled and the damage chart is checked against. Obviously, the selection of which scatter die to use must be determined before any further rolls are made.

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Thanks Primarch, that does help clarify things! I've not read through the Chaos rules yet, but will try and have a look later. Meantime, following up on your responses and Magnus' observations (it would be really handy to quote two people in replying and be able to pick segments of the conversation that you want to quote), here's more of my thoughts...



How about something like this:

Blessed by the Machine God. The servitors and tech priest that are part of the crew show superb efficiency. Re-roll missed repair rolls (this applies to all downed shields) once. Note that in the situation of a Titan rolling to repair a damaged reactor that all missed repair rolls may be rerolled but repairs may only be applied if the rolls to repair the reactor were succesful.

I'm thinking some examples might be helpful here, such as the following:

Example 1: Player has a damaged reactor, damaged weapon and has lost all shields. On the first reactor roll, he gets it back online, then fails to repair the weapon and three of the shields. This ability allows the player to reroll to repair the weapon and three more shields.

Example 2: In the same situation, the player fails to bring the reactor back online in the first roll. The reroll brings the Titan back online. He can then roll to repair the damaged weapon and shields AND may also reroll any failed rolls for these.



I agree with this;

Masterwork Plasma Reactor. Thrice blessed by the highest Magos Technologis of Mars, this reactor purrs with efficiency. The Titan's maximum plasma capacity is increased by 3 and generates a bonus 1d3 plasma per turn*.

* I always assumed that this was 1D3 bonus plasma per turn, thought I'd add that in for clarity. Let me know if it's not!




Yes, it was the scatter rule on top of the double-rate of fire that made me think the weapon is more than twice as good as it currently is. Could I maybe suggest that the scatter rule be added to the Marksmanship honour instead? This would mean renaming this honour and it being reduced to "add one attack dice per weapon", maybe call it something like "Invoke The Emperor's Wrath"?
@Magnus: Wherever the scatter rule is to be applied, I don't think you would roll for damage before picking which location you want to plump for, so "most favourable" would really equate to "pick which location you'd rather hit" and then damage be calculated after you'd picked the preferred location.




I disagree. I quite like this rule, and I agree that Primarch's compromise of "Perhaps two plasma for extra shots, per weapon... and three for extra plasma shots?" would balance the ability. Although, with a potential four bonus attack dice on a weapon, a Titan with Emperor Guide Me AND Augmented Ammo Feed would be one to be feared indeed! Throw Tactical Genius and a Masterwork Plasma Reactor into the mix and you have every player's wet dream/worst nightmare (depending on which side you are on)! I'm sure that was Primarch's intention!

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Sounds reasonable. I was intentionally leaving out fluff for the moment, just trying to find clarity.



That's what I was trying to say with my final sentence, I guess I didn't word it quite right.



I'm sure it was, and can understand why you'd want to be able to at least double, if not quadruple, your shots with a Volcano Cannon. While I wouldn't mind being able to do that either, I still find it to be overpowered. Especially when if using the same abilities with a Vulcan Mega Bolter would give bonus shots of up to half the weapon's normal rate. Much less effect for the same abilities. For the ability to be balanced, it would need to have a similar final effect regardless of what weapon it's applied to. When the final effect is *2 to *4 for one weapon and *0.125 to *0.5 for another, the ability is broken. Now, if the bonus from the ability multiplied number of shots (*1d3+1 for *2, *3, or *4) rather than straight adding, that might be better, as it would have the same effect on all weapons. While adding to the Plasma spent might balance the ability, what about people who are not using the Plasma system, but still want to use the Titan Experience system? They should, in my opinion, be made so as to be able to be used separately.

Actually, I just had a thought. I'm unclear on the initial intention for the ability on one point. That is, Primarch, were you intending the 1d3 to be rolled only once when the ability is gained? Or is the 1d3 rolled every time the weapon is fired? If the latter, would targets have to be declared first? That is, do all of the bonus shots automatically go to the same target? If it's supposed to be rolled when the weapon is fired and after targets are decided on, I suppose it could be reasonable as is. If it's just rolled once, or if the player can choose to shoot different, additional targets, then it seems overpowered to me.


An additional thought. I disagree that the points value of a Titan with experience should not increase. I feel that it should increase because you are getting to field a more powerful unit than is normal. What are point costs for if not to balance out the forces? Look at Bubonis in the NetEpic Gold Chaos book. It is more powerful than a normal Warlord and costs more. Admittedly, there has been discussion now and then that perhaps Titans are overpriced as it is, so costs should not go up much. Perhaps 50 points for each normal ability and 100 for each Chaos Reward, regardless of which specific one.

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This is a very good point that I hadn't considered. I assumed that it was 1D3 every time you used the ability and that you would declare all of your targets once you knew how many shots you had. I would expect that the bonus shots could be allocated as required.




I don't think the intention is for players to be able to buy experienced Titans. You should have to put in the hours and earn the XP before you make the gains. Therefore they don't cost more because you can't buy them.

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Hi!

Okay lots to comment on (many thanks for the feedback!)


1. The wording on the "blessed by the machine god" sounds good. Don't worry about wording at the moment, since once we decide on the mechanics I will rewrite the whole thing and repost an edited version for review and editing.

2. Chaos rewards. My first draft was with random rolls. The problem was what happens when you roll for something you already got? It became somewhat complicated so I discarded it in favor for the one posted. Since the rewards are more powerful as the number goes up, I instituted a "level" cap associated with the number. So the number of honors equals the number of the reward you get. This avoids titans with 1 honor to get lucky and get daemonhood or a grandmaster level titan getting a chaos tail. The reward should be commensurate with the skill level of the titan measured in honors.

I agree on the tzeentch head. We'll eliminate the knight class change and it can only effect units lesser than knight level, which are most units but not the real powerful ones. You swap for the effective unit on and one to one basis. One effected unit for one pink horror. This means you could only get a maximum of 4 since it has 4 attack dice. How does this sound?

3. Augmented ammo feed. Some clarification is needed. The feed gives yo 1d3 shots to ONE weapon system. You may pick this honor more times but it would be added to OTHER weapon system. So a titan can only have a total of 4 weapons with augmented ammo feed. Thus a weapon system can only get this honor ONCE. There is no adding this honor on top of a previous one for the same weapon system.

Second, the shots occur AFTER you nominate the target and are added to the shots fired to A SINGLE TARGET. In other words, you don't get to spread the extra dice to other targets. Its a sustained fire ability, so its more shots from that weapon system to the previously nominated target. Clearer?

4. Emperor Guide Me. Clarification. The targeting process for units with hit location templates remains unchanged. The only difference is that you get to roll for scatter TWICE and you pick which set of rolls (the first or the second) to keep. You DO NOT get to mix and match dice in those two rolls.

For example the first roll is "blank die" and "left"; the second roll is "up" and "right". You get to pick either a shot that scatter to the "left" from the first roll or a shot that scatters up and right. You don't get to pick "up" and combine it with either "left" of the blank die of the first roll. Clearer?

5. Titan missions and objectives. This is probably the only thing I feel relatively strongly about since I have so much playtest data on it. They simply just don't work well. It has been tried many times to balance them over the years but no good solution has been found. I like the rules to reflect the background as much as possible. Which is why I kept it simple. Titans are meant to destroy things, whatever they can. With these alternate rules they can constantly move and do this to a degree not previously obtainable. The job of the titan is to engage the enemy, its everyone else job to secure objectives and complete missions. Titans are powerful, but its ultimately up to the foot sloggers to secure victory.

6. Titan VP and Cost. The problem with increasing the COST of bringing a titan with earned honors to battle is that according to the play test data we accumulated over the years, players tend NOT to bring them to the battle once they get to expensive.

Most people play games between 3000-6000 points. Imagine if you had a warlord that initially cost around 850 points. If you increase cost by 100 points per honor (this was the usual cost applied when we used to do this) then just 2 honors places the titan cost over 1000 points! In some battles this may tie up 25% or more of your total points in that one unit. It's simple not worth it.

Using an extreme example, say that same titan made it to grandmaster, that would be 600 more points added for a whopping 1450!! No matter how potent it would be, it still retains the basic vulnerabilities of a warlord titan, no way its worth that much!

So its better to keep the cost the same but increase the VP it yields when destroyed. It encourages people to bring them and it is not cost onerous on the player to do so. Also remember, they already have a HUGE target on their back. While it may be easier to accrue XP for honors, I'm betting not many will survive beyond 2 or 3 honors accrued.

Like Bissler said, you EARN those honors, not buy them.

Wonderful commentary gentlemen, keep it coming! I believe we will hammer something pretty fun and manageable!

Primarch

Hmm, yes, I can see certain duplicates being problematic. Best to avoid the issue. Point conceded.



So it's one destroyed unit creates one Pink Horror. That works. Well, a maximum of four per turn anyway, unless the Titan has Tactical Genius. Hmm, can these head weapons be selected to receive the effects of other abilities? Such as Augmented Ammo Feed? Personally, I'd say no, as these are Psychic abilities and not real 'weapons' as such.



I understand that the way you first presented it that it may only be applied once to any specific weapon. That's not what I have a problem with. (Yes, I know that I proposed multiple applications earlier, but that's still aside from the point that I was trying to make.) The main problem I have is that the effect is unbalanced depending on exactly what weapon it is applied to. If this is intentional, just say so, if not then it needs to be fixed. Applying it to a weapon with few shots is much better than applying it to one that already has many shots. Another issue would be what happens when applying this ability to a Multiple Rocket Launcher or other barrage weapon? Unless NetEpic has changed this rule, you cannot have multiple barrages (from the same source) overlap the same target. Unless the weapon then fires multiple barrages in the same action (which would presumably have to touch each other and would be targeting other models, breaking your intention above) or the effective BP strength of the weapon increases, then it would have no effect at all, that I can think of.

I would also suggest just flat out saying that this ability cannot be applied to any of the one-shot missile systems. Even if just because they cannot be fired more than once.

OK, so you are confirming that the additional 1d3 shots are rolled after targets are declared. This I can live with, pending playtesting.



Somewhat, though I don't think anyone was suggesting mixing results like that. Still, it's good to have it stated before anyone does.



Actually, I entirely agree that honors should not be able to be purchased, and I apologize if anything I said sounded like that, as it was not intended to. However, now that you mention it, there should be some system in play for exactly that so long as it is explicitly for one-off games and playtesting only.

I also agree that the 100 per honor as suggested by 2nd edition Titan Legions (if I recall correctly) is too high for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Just because it's too high is not a reason to throw out the whole system. That why I suggested 50 for normal and 100 for Chaos Rewards (as they ARE more powerful), but 25 and 50 could work as well. What I was trying to say is that I feel that it should cost more to bring an experienced Titan to the game table than to bring a baseline one, so long as you already have the experienced Titan. Yes, I know that people get hesitant to bring it back to the table. I've been that person. It's not just about cost either. It's also partially, "Do I want to risk losing it for/in this game?" For example, at 25/50 per, a seventh level Titan with one Chaos Reward would cost 200 points more than it did when new. This is approximately the cost of one support card. Even with 50/100 the same example Titan would only be 400 more.

Oh, I forgot to explicitly mention this before, which may have caused some confusion, but I do agree with your progression of increased VP for experienced Titans. Seeing as that is already disconnected from the Titan's cost, adding a little to it's cost is not an issue to that.

I suppose we may have to agree to disagree on additional cost being useful. I would ask though that even if you don't include additional cost for an experienced Titan with the base system, do please include it as an optional rule. NetEpic does include many optional rules in it's books, and it is obvious that some people (me at the least) would use such a system.

Magnus

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Hi!

More great feedback Magnus!

Lets see:

1. Good catch on applying honors to chaos rewards. A specific line stating no honor benefit can be applied to a chaos reward should limit any unforeseen consequences.

2. Augmented ammo feed. I totally forgot about barrage weapons and the unintended points you stress. Hmmm. I wonder if this one is salvageable. I don't want to make an honor that is restricted to such a degree to make it unattractive or useless.

I asking on a more manageable use for this, or an altogether new ability. Give me ideas.

3. Ah, I wasn't thinking on purchase prices for one shot games. I will put in a pricing system and will use your 50/100 point suggestion. Options are always a good thing!

It would seem, with the exception of the augmented ammo feed honor, which needs work or a redo, the other things have been worked out favorably?

I'll ponder some more on the ammo feed and hopefully you guys can come up with something better.

Primarch

Aside from that, things seem good so far.

What I can come up with at the moment for the Ammo Feed ability would be to have the number of bonus shots be a fixed number based on the weapon's normal (or purchased with Plasma) number of shots. For example, if the weapon gets one or two shots normally, you gain one bonus shot. If three or four, you gain two. If five or six, you gain three. If seven or eight, you gain four. Alternatively, it could be done at a rate of one bonus per three normal shots if one per two seems like too many, though most weapons have an even number of shots, so I'd recommend the one per two rate. This would fix the problem I see with it being unbalanced by weapon. Based on the fluff for the ability the bonus shots should still have to be allocated to target(s) of normal shots, but perhaps we could say that if the Titan has the Marksmanship Crew Ability then the bonus shots (for that weapon) may be allocated to different targets. This would allow for what The Bissler wanted/was expecting and would make a nice synergy.

For normal Barrage weapons, I'd recommend either A: you gain one bonus barrage template that must be placed so as to be touching the first one, or B: the total BP of the attack is increased by 2 AND the TSM is increased (IE made stronger) by 1 point (so a -2 TSM would become a -3 TSM). A represents more missiles being fired and hitting an adjacent area. B represents more missiles being fired and blanketing the same area more thoroughly. I added the TSM increase to B because there are a small number of Barrage weapons for which just increasing the BP would have no effect at all. Option A would be most in keeping with the "gains more shots" feel, but somewhat breaks the "must be same target" vibe.

As I mentioned above, I'd recommend that this ability not be able to be applied to most of the one-shot weapons, with one exception. If applied to the Barrage Missile Launcher, you roll 2d6 and use the higher of the two rolls to determine the number of additional barrages. This represents the weapon being improved and made more reliable.

What do you guys think about any or all of this?

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Hi!

I've been thinking about this (mostly during work, terrible I know... ). How would you all feel if extra shots came at the expense of using more plasma? In the end plasma is the currency titans live and die by, so how about tying the extra shots to that?

you'd still get the 1d3 extra shots, BUT it would cost 1 additional plasma per shot and plasma weapons would be one or two extra depending on if its overcharge or not.

That way you still could get those 4 volcano cannon shots, but at 4 plasma its step (not to mention fire control and movement on top of that). Even if you rolled high you may not have the plasma to do it. Given the averages for plasma getting for volcano shots would be very improbable (if not impossible) even for a warlord.

Or make it harder still. One plasma for the first extra shot, two for the second and third shot, making a 4 shot volcano cannon cost SIX (without fire control or move included). Very unlikely.

OR

Just go with Magnus' idea.

In any event it doesn't apply to one shots.

Thoughts?

Primarch

Personally, I'd like to get it balanced outside of Plasma use for those people who use this system without using the Plasma rules. For that matter, the Reactor upgrade should have some alternate effect aside from Plasma generation, but we can worry about that another time.

I haven't been mentioning Plasma use with my ideas since I'm not really familiar with that thread, and probably wouldn't use those rules myself. Also, tying it so directly to Plasma use would encourage people to just 'stand in one place and shoot a lot', which you seem to be trying to discourage overall. Best to keep the extra Plasma use low (probably one to three, depending on the die roll - not the number of actual shots), along with the number of bonus shots.

Someone who still wants lots of Volcano Cannon shots can get them. Let's compare, using a theoretical Titan with one Volcano Cannon, Increased Ammo Feed, Emperor Guide Me!, and Tactical Genius. Using the 1d3 system, the Titan has (1 base + 1 EGM + 1d3 IAF) a minimum of three and a maximum of five shots per activation with that Volcano Cannon. At the base for Tactical Genius, it can make from six to ten shots per game turn and from nine to fifteen(!) if a Grandmaster. The only limit here is the number of targets would be one per activation. Even using my system, the same Titan still gets six shots per game turn or nine if Grandmaster. All from a weapon that normally only gets one shot per game turn. I suppose having such extra shots use extra Plasma could balance it somewhat, as you'd have to have that much available to get all those shots, but would be no help for someone not using the Plasma system.

It might be best to say that bonus shots from different enhancements do not add together. Admittedly, this would only remove one shot per activation (from Emperor Guide Me! ) from this mess.

Actually, I can see one other possibility to modify your 1d3 system and make it balanced. Instead of giving a flat number of bonus shots it would give a number of bonus shots equal to increments of the baseline number of shots. For example, the system would be unchanged from your base system when dealing with a Volcano Cannon or any weapon that normally gains one shot per activation, it would gain one, two, or three more shots. A weapon that normally has two shots would gain two, four, or six bonus shots. A weapon with six would gain six, twelve, or eighteen. And so on. This would be balanced for the other weapons. One would still have to designate targets before the 1d3 is rolled, and bonus shots would follow the pattern of primary shots, as with your system. You could even have additional Plasma use be determined by the number rolled, and this would be fair. Basing Plasma use on the actual number of bonus shots would not be fair, just on the die roll result.

Sorry if I'm being a 'stick in the mud' about this issue. It just seems like the way the ability is designed it's going to make the Volcano Cannon THE absolute number one weapon of choice for all Titans. Even more than it already is. To put that another way, applying Improved Ammo Feed to any weapon but a Volcano Cannon (or possibly Quake Cannon or Plasma Destructor) is going to clearly be a bad idea with the base system. Again, if that is your intention, just say so and I'll shut up.

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Hi!

No worries Magnus, its necessary to weed out any potential abuse, so this is good.

At this point, I thinking about just casting this aside and coming up with something else. I think its just too overpowered and to balance it involves a bit much "fiddliness" to make it work.

Any thoughts on a replacement honor for a titan upgrade?

Primarch

Here's my suggestion for a new upgrade;

Enhanced Agility: The Titan's legs have been upgraded. The Titan may add 5cm to its move rate and may make as many turns as desired during movement.


Sorry to be a pain Primarch but I'm still keen to tweak both the Marksmanship and Emperor Guide Me. I feel that the reroll on Marksmanship sounds more like "an act of God" and therefore that this would be more suited to Emperor Guide Me. Similarly the double hit location roll (increased accuracy) feels more suited to the Marksmanship ability. I've also thrown in a few other tweaks to Marksmanship, but this may make it overpowered;

Marksmanship: Marksmanship. The moderati is particularly blessed by the machine spirits. ONE weapon (chosen by player once honor is taken, weapon selection is permanent) can be fired with deadly accuracy. Because the moderati is an expert at targeting weak points on enemy armour, the weapon may add an additional -1 to the weapon's TSM. Furthermore, any shots against enemy units with hit location templates roll TWICE for scatter and the player takes the MOST FAVORABLE one for his shot. Also, if the weapon selected is a barrage and is required to scatter, the scatter is reduced to 1D6cm rather than 2D6cm. If the weapon is ever destroyed (blown off, etc) the moderati linked to the weapon is slain and the honor lost. This may be taken multiple times. Once per weapon system.

Emperor Guide Me! The moderati is supremely devout and the name of the Emperor always on his lips! One weapon selected receives a EXTRA attack dice AND the attack dice from that weapon that miss may be re-rolled once*. This may be taken multiple times, once per weapon system.

*Should this be once per turn or once per battle? I'm not sure what the original intention was for this.

Thoughts?

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Just looking at their effects, both Marksmanship and Emperor Guide Me! affect the accuracy of the Titan. Just in different ways. I still think that "most favorable" is the wrong way to phrase that, but that could be just me. Other than that, which of these does what doesn't bother me.

What I am interested in is what happens when a weapon with one (or more) of these upgrades gets blown off. Yes, I see where it says that the upgrade is lost. Does that mean that the Titan loses one (or more) levels? If it does, and it's XP total drops to the minimum for the previous level I'd guess, than it could re-earn a new promotion. If it does not lose any levels, then it has a permanent hole in it's progression that cannot be filled. Either way of dealing with this has it's ups and downs. What do you guys think?

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Hi!

Bissler those changes look good, although I agree with Magnus to drop the "most favorable" wording since that leads to confusion to what and when "most favorable" means. Other than that I'll go with Bissler's redefinition.

That is something I thought about, but have not yet decided on what to do. What happens when titan upgrades are lost? Either or the whole titan for that matter?

I was inclined to a "level" loss. So if you lose one honor you start at the lowest point of the previous level. So if you had three honors and lost one, you start at the lowest XP for having two honors and so forth. Its easy to keep track of and gives a real penalty for having suffered the loss in battle.

OR

The can be taken anew but only as CREW HONORS. The titan or upgrade, but the crew learns something valuable. Meaning if you have 3 honors and lose one you regain it as a crew honor. That way XP is never lost, just shifted. It also means titan upgrades are "precious".

Thoughts?

Primarch