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Epic War! Campaign Rules

 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:59 pm 
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Hi Bissler,
I am reading through your rules right now.
I have several issues and ideas but there is a lot of stuff
which is excatly like some of my idesa(and I think DNME too)
when I though about campain rules(Campain ordes/army sizes)

-Terrain and map creation: I think that works for everybody and should not be a problem

-Campain victory points: I think it should be like this you can alsways discuss some of them with your buddy but
in th end it will look liktethat

-Force sizes: hmme here I had some problems too
how to prevent steamrolling and give the campain tactical depth.
I am still a fan of variable forcesizes cause they give you more character.
For example: there could be 2-3 different army sizes
battalions: 1000-3000(no more than 4 COYs) those forces could also be specialized, like cavallery or tanks
regiments: 4000-8000(no more than 10 COYs) no special forces, complete(well rounded) armies
maybe additional Divisions: 12000-15000(or more)

In WW2 for example menpower differd very much from german to soviet divisons (15000 to 5000 men)
maybe you can roll for each player at the beginning of the campain.
1-2 Bat. 1500 reg. 5000 div. 10000
3-4 Bat. 2000 reg. 6000 div. 12000
5-6 Bat. 3000 reg. 7000 div. 14000
would give you a feel for different military organisation
and much more tactical depth

-move rates your system sounds good and nearto realism
thugh I am still for the 10cm = 1 square
with my unit organisation each big army would be 1 square slow
but each bat. could speed up to 4 squares(with only gyroyopter for example)

-flyers: I would like to see flyers kept being seperated
in smaller formations up to 1000 for example.
They should stay on marked airport squares and should be able to support ground troops once per campain turn within range.
Although airborn troops should be stationary an airport squares and then being able to make airassaults on unoccupied OR conquested squares(D-Day Arnheim :spin )

-movement and attacks:
here nearly everything is fine(very fine). I would like to see armies attacked from several sides, though.
If you are alone on the campain map you could get encircled or attacked from the flanks.
If a attack happens from several sides this should get represented on the battlefield by setup zones from the sides or wherever the attacks came from.

-scouting: seems good for me but frrls more like an alternate rule

-reserves:
Quote:
On the campaign map, the losing player’s army has been routed and he must remove the counter. However, anything in his force that escaped the battle should now be noted down under the Reserves section on his campaign roster. Any Titans that survived the battle will also be placed into this section, and any damage sustained in the battle automatically repaired (unless the optional Titan rules from the Advanced Rules are being used).
Once this is done, the players must play the next battle until all battles for that turn have been completed. Once all battles have been completed, players can then proceed to the End Phase.
Note on attrition: After a battle, it is perfectly possible that a force that won a battle may have companies that have been broken or even annihilated. This raises the possibility that basic Epic rules are being breached as Support and Special Cards are no longer attached to a Company. If the player has any reserves that can rectify this situation, they must use them (see End Phase for more on reserves). However, if the situation cannot be rectified, the army can continue on. This represents the fact that in war forces will battle on no matter what losses have been sustained to commanders and the like.

I am excatly with you here
incomplete units should also move to the reserve section
let me say 3 out of 4 dark reaper >incomplete>reserve>has to fill up any othe incomplete dark reaper unit in th endphase
ahh you write it down ;D
on my part thats one of the funniest parts of a campain refresh forces, feel the lost of unique units
I am sure Titan experience will come late but have to stop reading now

will tell you more thoughts the next days
a fantastic start though
now I can start playing a campain now
with little adjustments for me :)

Now my next battle will be out of a war
where a army of the imperium(Marines,Guard,Titans)
will defend their planet against an allied invasion consisting of Eldar Tau and Squat forces.

May the Emperor be with you Ulmander ;D


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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:39 pm 
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Put the movement down to logistics, any large body of troops is harder to organise and move coherently more than a smaller force, and most armies etc have organic transport.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:13 am 
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https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=5 ... vUBQwBMGpI
original started version

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=5 ... PvbSzaWsUo
Tweaked rules with ammendments


Just to update the links and so you can see the route I took, certainly a huge campaign as we each have 300k of troops, and averaging 8 battles a turn and only fighting in one sector at present.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:36 am 
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Hi Ulric, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the system, very much enjoyed reading them - and I'm delighted that you are interested in using the system for your own campaign! Thought I'd respond to a few of the points raised, hope this helps!

Preventing steamrollering: Both players agree to the maximum force sizes before creating their armies. In all likelihood, I'd expect both players to create a few armies which are set at that maximum points tally. It's also worth mentioning that if the situation were to arise that one player used only large armies against a player who created only small armies, I'm hoping that it would be possible for either player to "win the war".

Taking an extreme example, 1 player builds his forces based on 8,000 point armies, while the other does so with 3,000 point armies. Because of their size, the first player's forces will take an age to move across the campaign map, while the second player will be able to sweep across the map at speed, probably snatching a few campaign objectives in the first player's side of the board. The second player will probably have time to fortify (build defences) as the slow moving mobs bear down on them. Even with defences built and the second player's army fully prepared (ie on First Fire), once battles are engaged, the 1st player will no doubt win, and probably convincingly (notching up a few of those overwhelming victory CVPs). However, I'd expect that victory to come at a cost with the first player suffering a disproportionate number of casualties. The next time the first player's army enters battle, his force will be somewhat depleted against another fresh army which again is probably in defensive mode. The result is that the 1st player notches up a lot of points for overwhelming victories but after time attrition will take its toll and the 2nd player should have more in reserve to start using his smaller armies to counter-attack his enemies now-depleted "large" armies. While initially dispiriting for the player with the smaller forces, the war can still change course!

I didn't want to set any rules in stone about points sizes for armies for several reasons because I want players to have complete control over the size and creation of their armies. I like your ideas about the specialised forces, but again, I want players to have complete freedom in designing their force so didn't want to set any rules about that.

Move Rates: I get where you are coming from about the move rates but honestly, as bitter experience has taught both myself and DNME, the whole campaign can suffer badly because of it. If both your forces have similar move rates, then by all means go for it, but, personally I'm against it because of the speed disparity between some of the forces. (Just imagine how your Squat gyrocopter forces could completely dominate the campaign map against a Chaos force which is all infantry). As a side note, you always have to keep an eye on your armies, the move rate will change if after a battle your infantry have lost their transports... More admin!

Flyers: I'm happy for the community to suggest rules about fliers since I don't use 'em!

Attacks: Glad you like those rules! Yes, attack from different directions is something that has been on my mind. I'm still trying to work out how to deal with it for the advanced rules. (The problem is that you have 2 armies against 1, the defending force will in all probability be annihilated. Not much fun.)

Scouting: The main reason why I wanted there to be an option about scouting was because while both players can see where one another's armies are, they do not know their size. I'm trying to help prevent the situation where one player with a 2,000 point army merrily engages an 8,000 point army with no conception of what they blundering into! You may well be right though, it probably does feel like an advanced rule. Maybe in the basic rules (which are supposed to be making the campaign as simple as possible) it would be easier for both players to be able to see the points values of all the armies on the map.

Reserves: I've realised that I haven't said anything about players who want to completely disband an army (even if they have won) after a battle. Players can do that (I'll add it in to an updated version of the rules at a later date), all they do is remove their army counter and add all of the surviving units into their reserves. Just as with the odd unit which is broken down and put in reserves, all of these units will be able to be reassigned to other armies from the following turn onwards.

Since you are keen to try out the campaign, I'll try and batter on with the advanced rules this weekend so you are able to see the complete rules available before starting!

Good luck!

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Last edited by The Bissler on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:07 am 
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DNME wrote:
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=5371AA1C4199B933!230&authkey=!AATvMvUBQwBMGpI
original started version

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=5 ... PvbSzaWsUo
Tweaked rules with ammendments


Just to update the links and so you can see the route I took, certainly a huge campaign as we each have 300k of troops, and averaging 8 battles a turn and only fighting in one sector at present.



Thanks for posting up your rules, greatly enjoyed reading them! I think your rules have a far more realistic feel about them as opposed to mine.

For my advanced rules I have very similar (close to identical in fact) rules planned for how terrain affects movement.

I did consider chain of command rules but really struggled with these, mostly because I was worried it may be a frustration for players. As a result, I have nothing planned for chain of command. My figuring was that you as the player/commander are safely removed from the theatre of war but are somehow magically capable of relaying all of your instructions to your armies - see what I mean about my system not being realistic?!

I do have some supply rules planned but they are pretty different and in all honesty yours are better! I'll write them up anyway, but don't really expect players to bother with them. I also really enjoyed your rules for building units during the campaign rules, that was something I had never considered!

You had mentioned earlier about some armies consisting solely of Titans, was this using the old battle group rules (I'm not that familiar with them, I dropped out just before the Imperator Titan rules were released)? I'm pretty sure NetEpic Gold has put a stop to that so players have to buy companies first and then Titans as Special Cards. Hopefully that will avoid the problem!

Also, cannot believe you are involved in a 300k campaign! Genies, or madness, I'm not sure which category that falls into! In the words of a certain Mr Galloway, I salute your strength, your courage, your indefatigability"!

Out of interest, which version of Epic are you playing?

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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:37 am 
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Playing sm2 all we ever use. Just as a note there is no point worrying about realism as long as you achieve what you are aiming fir. You cannot include everything as it just adds more complexity to the campaign. I have often thought ofdoing the campaign and others playing out the battles. It is something I am considering as can have a campaign turn a month and other players do the battles, would be able to have more campaignarmiesvand commanders too.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:57 am 
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DNME wrote:
I have often thought ofdoing the campaign and others playing out the battles. It is something I am considering as can have a campaign turn a month and other players do the battles, would be able to have more campaignarmiesvand commanders too.


That would be good if you could get the players willing to participate! Hope you can.

Once I get around to actually playtesting my system again, I'll set up a thread here following the actual campaign. I'm planning on posting up battle reports (and posting the links on the campaign thread) so that anyone interested can follow the campaign and see how/if?! it works out...

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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:30 pm 
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Hmm. As many of you may be aware, I've been painting up my Chaos army. As I was looking at my Angron miniature, something Ulrich said came back into my head "one of the funniest parts of a campain refresh forces, feel the lost of unique units".

It made me think "waitaminute!" Chaos forces are largely built around a Greater Demon rather than a company. How would this work in a campaign? Would you be allowed multiple Greater Demons and Primarchs (ie, multiple Bloodthirsters, multiple Angrons, etc)? I'm presuming you would, but am interested to get the thoughts of the community on this one!

PS Have made some progress on the Advanced Rules but still some way to go! Advanced Movement dealt with and half way through writing the off-table support rules which are very much based on the original Space Marine rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:36 am 
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Having fun writing the off-table support rules! Writing up the "Shock and Awe" barrage (which is an off-table version of the Titan barrage missilve launcher) brought this moment to mind; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRhbRk6b5M4

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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:33 pm 
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With the Deamon's its not a worry as the are summoned or manifest for the battle as while not fighting they are in the warp, and tbh they would be able to be on multiple places as are gods and fighting in multiple places in th w40k universe already


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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Excellent! That's exactly the answer I was hoping for! I'm assuming the same would apply to Eldar Avatars. I've also worked on the assumption that each army designed for the campaign would be entitled to the usual 2 free cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:50 pm 
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Not sure what you mean by usual free cards. But with mine normal army restrictions applied and only one instance of a special character can be in whole of forces I.e. Only one yarrick or ordinatus goliath in total.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:08 pm 
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DNME wrote:
Not sure what you mean by usual free cards. But with mine normal army restrictions applied and only one instance of a special character can be in whole of forces I.e. Only one yarrick or ordinatus goliath in total.


The Avatar was a free card along with one squad from whichever Craftworld you used. Under NetEpic Gold it's only the Avatar that's free now, but I forget sometimes!

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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:23 pm 
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Right! Rules update! I've attached the updated rules doc.

Changes:

Scout rules removed from the basic rules to the advanced rules section. In the basic game, every army's points value would be on display for both sides to see on campaign map.

Some additional information on Reserves.

Advanced Move Rates rules.

Fog of War (incorporating old Scout rules which were previously shown under the basic rules section).

Advanced movement - terrain affects armies movement.

Off-table support. These rules are pretty much the reintroduction of the 1st edition Space Marine barrage rules with some very minor tweaks.



What I haven't dealt with are the following:-

Experience. Escalating campaign rules.

Also, I've given up on the idea of Supply Rules. I'm happy for anyone else to contribute rules for these if they wish!

I may open a seperate thread for the Experience rules setting out my basic ideas for XP, simply because I'd like to know what the thoughts of the community are before I write them.

Thoughts and feedback very much welcomed as always!


Attachments:
Epic War.docx [35.42 KiB]
Downloaded 333 times

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 Post subject: Re: Epic War! Campaign Rules
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:10 pm 
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With experience I only used the titan experience rules, and only for titans. As if experience fir troops etc just gets it messyand with losses the replacements would keep them at same level. Will postmore as just on phone


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