To expound a bit on the concepts from the "lagging behind" thread.

I think it could be a good idea to make a second Codex Astartes list, based on the current Space Marine codex and without Titans and Navy support. Like I said in the aforementioned thread I think the current Codex Astartes list can be thought of as representing Marines fighting as part of the full might of the Imperium, like they did on Armageddon. There are two issues with that list that keeps popping up, one is the preponderance of Thunderhawks and Warhounds, the other is the desire to add new units. I think a second, generic, Space Marine list could address both. I'd keep Thunderhawks, though. To me they're iconic to how the Astartes fight, especially if they're operating on their own. The Thunderhawk Close Air Support and Saturation bombing configurations are also a nice way to add strong fire support without Titans.

I could write up a list, but I'd like to see if there's any traction for the concept first. I see the defining characteristics as:

- No Titans, Thunderbolts or Marauders. Replaced by Storm Talons and Thunderhawk configs.
- Thunderfire cannons, probably as upgrades to Tactical Marines. Could make a very solid garrison formation.
- Scouts get Land Speeder Storms instead of Rhinos.
- Ironclad Dreadnoughts. Maybe a dedicated Dreadnought formation?
- Land Raider Redeemer (let the Black Templars keep their Crusaders - 3 Land Raider variants in one list is overkill anyway)
- Same structure as the current Astartes list, but Thunderhawks are moved into an Air Support category (max 33% points spent, or perhaps less?) together with Storm Talons


Why another generic list? I think it needlessly limits the list if it's named after a chapter. There would almost have to be some kind of weirdness like Death Company or Neophytes, which kinda limits who would use it. I think a better way would be to name it after campaigns. The old Codex Astartes list could be called Codex Astartes Armageddon, while this one would get a different name. Perhaps it could be included in one of the upcoming supplements and be named appropriately?

Now the final question: base it on the 40k 5th ed codex or wait for the upcoming 6th codex?

like the idea, I think that the driving force behind a new, forum-wide supplement could be the creation of more standardised 'form' lists which are open ended to facilitate the adding of new units......

rather than limit the number of land raider variants for example, how about having a 'no more than 2 landraider variants per army' but providing options for all of the non-chapter specific ones?

just a thought

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If you're going to do it, wait till the 6ed Codex comes out or you'll get complaints it's outdated again.

The suggestions you've made are good, though I for one would prefer not to see a Space Marine Dreadmob; Dreadnoughts traditionally fight with the company they were in when they were interned, so using them as upgrades makes more sense.

One thing to watch is not to create a 'kitchen sink list'. Many 'modern' lists fall into the trap of trying to make every option in 40k availabe to the list, which dilutes theme and makes balancing harder. Make the changes neccessary to drive the changes you're after, but don't overload it with units. So far, you're on the right track - replacement (as with the Redeemer suggestion) is a far better solution than simple addition.

I wish you good luck - finding balance is always hard, but will be particularly so with a modern list because of competing ideals among players.

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Really like that idea. Although i'm not sure about the chapter specific comment, as many ostensibly chapter-specific variants might be used by second founding etc, or GW might decide in a years time to give them to all chapters to improve sales. Stops the need for a variant list just because the pink marines have a LR with puppy cannons that no-one lese may use.

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The idea would be that when the list is done, it's done. No place for retroactively adding units. I happen to think that a Land Raider Crusader lives on just fine as a bonus for Black Templars (and successor chapters of course) as it's one of the things they are known for.

I'm also no fan of kitchen sink lists. Will it be enough to remove titans and navy, or are more cuts needed?

Thinking a bit more about it, I think SG is right. Should probably wait for the 6th ed codex.

On formations: Would you take a formation of Tacticals and Thunderfire cannons and put them on garrison? Will Scout formations be noticably better with the increased frontage from Land Speeder Storms also having scout? (AFAIK Rhinos need to stick within 5cm of at least one scout unit.)

It has merit. Instead of trying to make Codex Mk 2 list as a name I'd suggest it's something along the lines of Marine Invasion List or Astartes Crusade or at least something that should make people immediately think about an independent marine force without navy/army support. I for one would probably play the ever living Sh!t out of this as I am sick of seeing a mob of warhaounds and TBolts in my marines. Provided you can over come the limitations of no titans to make this list competitive I think it's great addition. It will not be for everyone but so what? Not every list is (you'll never see me play BT list ever for instance).

I'd suggest better / wider THawk support and some of the hard hitting Land Raider options to be available as well. I hate to say it, but the terminus ultra might actually finally have a reason to exist here, the horrible abortion of a model that thing is. It's going to be hard to balance a list with needed access to AT as well as AP bullet storm for pest control armies (orks, 'nids).

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Not perhaps for this list, but I have always wondered about how you get to be a marine; presumably through surviving life in the scouts. And that started me wondering if there was any merit in a 'light recon' style list, so scouts, preds etc, with air support to insert and extract, and perhaps big brother marines as allies?

If the list drops Titans, what exactly does it need to compensate for it? Can Warlords and Reavers be ignored for this purpose? They're a pretty big investment that you don't take for every list.

What are the weaknesses that needs to be covered by a lack of Warhounds? Powerful Macro Weapon attacks? Fast and shooty? (Predators can fit that description) Fast and sturdy (Fearless, Void Shields)? Or are they simply a very good unit that are in the "sweet spot" of formation cost for EA? (Not so expensive that they hurt you on activations, not so cheap that they have to be rubbish.)

I see the Thunderhawk Close Air Support config (Turbo Laser, Rockets) covering the shooting bit, even if it doesn't bring Macro Weapons (Preds suffer more than the Warhounds when doubling due to the high to hit of the Plasma Blastgun, meaning they at least in my experience need more setup). Is that enough or is more needed.

Land raider terminus ultra formations would be an option to add more AT firepower..... 4 would give 12 AT4+ and 8 AT5+ shots, combine that with reinforced armour and ATSKNF.....

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Call it the Apocrypha of Davio. I'll make the AoS a bit more second-editiony, you can be all sixth editiony. It'll be fun.

Alternately, simply name them after the world campaigns for the various editions. So the 3rd edition list would be the Armageddon Campaign Marines (and another 3rd edition styled list could be the Eye of Terror Campaign Marines). The 4th edition marine list would be Medusa V. 5th edition evidently wouldn't get one. And 6th edition hasn't happened yet.

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That's my preference. "Astartes Armageddon" captures the spirit of the list nicely, at least IMHO. I have to admit that the "Apocrypha of Skaros" name confused me for years

I make no apologies for the fact that other people don't read the codices as closely as I do. Dammit, six point font builds character!



Sure. Though I think the Storm Eagle would make a good Marauder replacement.

Too much goddamn Storminess in modern Marine names.



They might make more sense with Devastators, or as an independent formation - they're fairly long-range fire support, after all.



Personally, I always have despised upgrades that exist only for one unit.



I wouldn't bother with the first (it feels like one of those "non-represented variant" things. Like Veterans or Scout Bikes or Assault Terminators). Dedicated Dreadnought formations aren't completely out-of-keeping with the fluff (at least one Ultramarines company has four Dreadnoughts), but they aren't exactly normal, either.



OK.

Like others (and you) have said, waiting for the 6e codex probably makes a lot of sense.

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Sounds like a damn good idea to me!!

Rename the current list Armageddon Marines and call the new one one something like 'Space Marine Chapters' or even 'Ultramarines'.

I personally love the blood angel list, a few titans and bits removed a few organisation changes and the addition of a couple of new units. It captured the feel of the modern Codex: Blood Angels list without the need to add every new little unit.

The same could be done to match the new book, without the need to touch the old one (I just bought a load of thunderbolts, sometimes I want use them ;-) )

Actually I've been sort of planning this already. I had started looking at what lists had what and seeing how things could fit. I haven't yet fleshed out a list however.

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