Rapiers are tracked crewed weapons. A speed over 10cm is being improbably generous.

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Just because they are tracked and crewed doesn't instantly set their speed to 10cm and based on their stats elsewhere, I don't think that's the case. In 40k terms they are artillery and can move 6" same as the regular speed of infantry and vehicles. In Rogue Trader terms, they accelerate at 6" per turn to as max speed of 24. I don't see any reason they shouldn't be 15cm.

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-Vaaish

It's not uncommon to stretch a range band where reasonable - for example hellhounds or demolisher cannons. Epic is more about effective ranges rather than theoretical maximum ranges as calculated on a clear shooting range on a sunny day.

With 15cm speed and a 30cm range, you've changed the role of the unit entirely. It's no longer a garrison overwatch unit, but a shooting / ff support unit... At which point you could remove it from the list entirely and not lose any functionality at all, as @15cm/30cm it's mostly just duplicating the Saggitari's role and has little unique to offer in itself.

So if you went that far in pulling away from the stats of the official unit (which is bloody great as an overwatch garrison) -changing the armour, the speed, the range and the to-hit stats (about all you don't want to change is its Type, and that only after quite some convincing) - with its new stats pushing it into a role that has little distinctiveness of its own, I'd say you should just remove it as it'll just be wasting space in a list that has about five thousand too many list building options.

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That's untrue.
Infantry move 6" + an optional d6" - the rapier doesn't have that faster option.
Vehicles move 6" or 12" depending on how many guns you want to fire.


How about "they're awesome at 10cm".

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Ok.



I realize the role is changing. Is it more important to build a unit guided by what it is capable of in 40k and fluff or just create a totally different unit and call it a rapier? What's been said so far is that the Siegemasters have the rapier don't touch it. However, what the Siegemasters call a rapier (regardless of swordwind) doesn't line up with any of the other fluff and even the more recent stats. What's the point of basing things on fluff and stats we have available if we ignore them?



You are over simplifying to try and make a point. There are differences between sagitarii and rapiers that affect the way the formation is used if you take Servitors or Rapiers. There's more to be said that the gun servitors duplicate the sagitarii's role than the rapiers.

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-Vaaish

Hence why i said "regular" as I've stated before running CANNOT be used to determine anything related to the speed of a unit in Epic. It is a relatively new mechanic and the effects are minimal to the point that it would be completely invisible in epic. The closest you could make a case for is a rapier can't double or march which would be the rough equivalent of running in 40k. The base speed of the Rapier is exactly the same as the base speed of any other infantry in the game.

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-Vaaish

You're chasing angels on a pinhead here, saying 25 year-old rules on speed are relevant, but today's rules on speed are irrelevant.
At the same time you're saying today's rules on the gun's range and to-hit stats are the most important.

The decision is between a unit that currently has some (good) official stats and a clear consequential role, or a unit that has slightly more accurate stats but lacks a unique/obviously useful battlefield role.

Does that slightly greater accuracy outweigh the twin concerns of:
- lessening actual in-game utility
- changing an official unit in many/most of its stat values (speed, gun range, gun AP value, gun AT value, armour value, and also possibly cc/ff rating?)

That is your choice.

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Slavish compliance with whatever the current stats are, let alone trying to marry together stats from multiple editions should rank a lot below making a unit useful and effective. 40K is not a highly detailed and accurate simulation of future war; it's a kludgy game which in many ways is groaning under it's 25+ years of back history.

Take the concept of the Rapier laser destroyer, that of a tracked crew served platform using quad lascannons for rapid fire anti tank duty with a smattering of anti infantry capability thanks to the volume of shots generated, and make an epic unit from there. When doing so, compare to similar units in other lists, and always keep in mind what you intend the unit to be for, rather than what the 40k designers decided to use at the time.

On the 10/15cm move, whilst I think Ben's argument about 40k run speed is spurious (a 40K game is most like an epic engagement, the "last hundred yards", where someone might be expected to make a last mad dash at the enemy. The +d6 move would in no way factor into the strategic movement distances Epic deals with) the fact that all similar units (Eldar weapons platforms, Ork big gunz, hell, even the Imperial Guard rapier laser destroyer!) have a 10cm move, so there'd have to be a strong reason why these wouldn't.

On a final note, although all my posts in this thread have been negative, that's only because I'm only posting about what I specifically don't like, and think in general the list is doing fine

I would agree with your first part. The second part is indeed a strong and acceptable reason for the rapier remaining 10cm.


It may have come across that way, but my reasoning didn't have much to do with slavish compliance. In looking over both systems, the rapier moved at the standard speed of infantry and since 15cm is the standard speed of infantry in epic, it seemed reasonable that the rapier should also be 15cm.

Moving on though to the remaining aspects of the rapier, I think that it should work as a supporting weapon in the sagitarii more so than a garrison unit. That means I think it should be 30cm in range, but 4+ FF to match the sagitarii and follow the fluff that it's devastating up close.

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-Vaaish

But all artillery moves the same speed as infantry, and yet the speeds are different in Epic...

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If something is standard in epic I typically will let that trump 40k.

Ok, I think we should test the rapier both as a FF unit and as a fire support unit. So for this draft, I'll be leaving it at 30cm range and give it FF4+. I don't think there is anything else at this point to work through before this goes live for testing.

I would like to see us test three aspects heavily but primary importance placed on the changes to the Demi-Century and Sagitarii since they are a core formations. Secondarily, I would like to see further tests to the robots.

From this list here is where I would like to see the list move:

1. add in additional Majoris types.
2. split the titan weapons from the war griffins list and create a weapons table with point values for both Titans and Ordinatus.
3. check balance on the minorus configurations
4. Add allies back in.
5. final polishing.

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-Vaaish

10cm move and 30cm range?

Almost totally useless - you'll be "forced" to upgrade its speed later on to make it useful (resulting in a unit with basically the same role as the Saggetari you insist on attaching it to), thereby ending up with the stats you wanted in the first place.

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Yes, lets assume everything is a conspiracy. excellent idea. Let me explain.

I'm not denying the benefit to giving them 45cm and 10cm speed as the extra range naturally makes them more capable in a stand off overwatch role but I don't see this extra range as necessary. There are two reasons for this. First, if they are on overwatch as a garrison at an objective and engaged, it doesn't matter if the range is 30cm or 45cm, the sagitarii will still get to shoot before the engagement happens. The point being they will still do the damage regardless whether they have 45cm or not.

Second has to do with their offensive use. While 10cm move does mean they aren't going to be marching around on foot, I think this will be largely immaterial because you would want to give them transport anyway so they can get where they are needed. If the rapiers are transported, you no longer have to worry about the 10cm movement speed.

Now we could just leave the range at 45cm and we will do that if testing the 30cm range doesn't come out as I expect it will, but in any event, 30cm with 4+ff and 10cm movement is what will be tested in this draft. I look forward to your battle reports proving the rapiers to be almost totally useless.

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-Vaaish

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No no, Vaaish has made his choice.

It's one that changes official stats and as a byproduct makes the unit largely useless, but it's made.

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