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Skitarii Legions Roadmap

 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:44 am 
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I feel the ratio to core units should be switch around for the Ordinatus and Support. Your not going to have more fragile, wonky, slow machines in a proper army over robots and stuff...and I also think Majors should be 1:1 to any Minor formation.


I believe dark apostle disagrees with that. It has a minorus for every company IIRC

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:57 am 
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Vaaish wrote:
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I feel the ratio to core units should be switch around for the Ordinatus and Support. Your not going to have more fragile, wonky, slow machines in a proper army over robots and stuff...and I also think Majors should be 1:1 to any Minor formation.


I believe dark apostle disagrees with that. It has a minorus for every company IIRC

That is one of the few BL books I have yet to read. Either way then the 1:1 for Minor:Major should stay.

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:01 am 
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adding an additional 1:1 in there feels rather unnecessary right now. Majoris aren't being abused as it is.

a few stat changes to cover before we update the test list:

Demi-century: 9x hypaspist and 1x Secutor
Sagitarii: 250 points, 5x Sagitarii and 5x Gun Servitors (lascannons +75 points, HB +50 points)

Secutor is mostly the same as it currently is with the addition of Commander

Magos: same as the tech-lord, just a simple rename.

Sagitarii: FF4+ and mortar option removed.

Gun Servitor: Infantry 15cm 5+ 6+ 4+
Lascannon OR 45cm AT5+
Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+

I'm open to suggestions for gun servitors, but the weapons choices need to be focused.

Colossus: autocannons get 30cm AA6+ which translates into 5 shots.

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:35 am 
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Pick one config for gun servitors. Multi choice on an inf unit is too much detail. Especially when there are no models.

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:12 am 
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Vaaish wrote:
adding an additional 1:1 in there feels rather unnecessary right now. Majoris aren't being abused as it is.

Demi-century: 9x hypaspist and 1x Secutor
Sagitarii: 250 points, 5x Sagitarii and 5x Gun Servitors (lascannons +75 points, HB +50 points)

They aren't abused because there is lack of a good model for some unknown reason? :eh
Plus when we write a PDF list how will it differ it both lists throw out all the Ordaitus?

I still say there should be a Secutor in the Sagitarii. 5x Sag, 1x Secutor, 4x Gun Servitors?

I would say make them Lascannons to counter act the APness of the Plasma Cannons but were using the AP5/AT5 stats instead of the AP4/AT6. Maybe drop the servitors as an upgrade for the Demi Century? 4x Sag, 1x Secutor?

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Pick one config for gun servitors. Multi choice on an inf unit is too much detail. Especially when there are no models.


Kevs models got picked up for production so there will be/are models that represent stormbolter/HB armed tracked servitors that could easily be converted to lascannon and I'm sure that there are other proxy models available. Two choices on units isn't unheard of either with marine razorbacks and dreadnoughts. There is also the Exarch and Autarch character option between CC and ranged as well as the Ork Oddboyz which, being characters, is arguably more detailed than what I'm proposing.

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They aren't abused because there is lack of a good model for some unknown reason?
Plus when we write a PDF list how will it differ it both lists throw out all the Ordaitus?


Ordinatus are too central to what makes AdMech AdMech to use as a factor in alternate list construction. While the majoris is at least rare enough that they get named for a planet, they are by no means limited just to the forgeworld either. I think we've got a wide range of options for things that the Mechanicus CAN use that a PDF list could be made without messing with ordinatus or simply by moving the minorus to core. At some point it might be better to simply make a note that only one Majoris is allowed per X points. Linking the Majoris to the minorus makes the effective cost to field the majoris a bit crazy.

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I still say there should be a Secutor in the Sagitarii. 5x Sag, 1x Secutor, 4x Gun Servitors?

I don't think the secutor works well in the unit and leaving him out helps to solidify the sagitarii role as a shooting detachment.


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I would say make them Lascannons to counter act the APness of the Plasma Cannons but were using the AP5/AT5 stats instead of the AP4/AT6. Maybe drop the servitors as an upgrade for the Demi Century? 4x Sag, 1x Secutor?


Servitors shouldn't be moved to the demi-century for the core skitarii list. Adding them there starts to water down the roles for the hypaspists and sagitarii. I want the sagitarii formation to be a bit better at FF support and a lot better at shooting than a demi-century. That's why I changed their FF to 4+ from 3+. With the plasma being 5/5 adding an AT 5+ option and an AP5+ option allows the unit to focus to create AT and AP versions.

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:54 am 
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I definitely agree that there should be just one type of Gun Servitor. Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks are fine to have multiple types, because they're Vehicles. Servitors are Infantry, and that's just too detailed. Maybe something like Autocannons for the Servitors, giving them a mixed-statline that caters more to an AP role?

I'm still not a huge fan of the Sagitarii as a whole, but I understand you're a big fan of them, Vaaish. Can I ask what the main role differences are between the Sagitarii and the Demi-century? It seems to me that the normal Hypaspist formation is already built as a Shooting/Firefight unit, what with having a ton of Heavy Bolter shots and a large number of units with decent FF ability. Is there a weapon with AP6+/AT5+? If so, that'd make a good option for the Servitors; allow the Sagitarii to fill more of an anti-vehicle role, and allow for an alternate list to have the servitors as upgrades to the Hypaspists as well, making them a better mixed-use formation.


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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:38 am 
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I definitely agree that there should be just one type of Gun Servitor. Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks are fine to have multiple types, because they're Vehicles. Servitors are Infantry,


Why does being a vehicle suddenly make it alright? Take, for instance, a tactical detachment. It usually needs three rhinos, but I can replace that with 6 razorbacks and give three of them HB and three Lascannons. That means you now have 6 units in the formation that has multiple types of weapons. Regardless of type, you still have 6 units in the detachment that can swap weapons. Having a 5 units in a detachment that can swap a weapon isn't any more detail especially when you consider that both Orks and Eldar have characters (which is even more detailed) that have the option.

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I'm still not a huge fan of the Sagitarii as a whole, but I understand you're a big fan of them, Vaaish. Can I ask what the main role differences are between the Sagitarii and the Demi-century?



To match the fluff, both have to be a shooting formation to a degree and based on the fluff it's not a huge difference either. Originally the shooting difference was far more pronounced since we were using the plasma cannon rules from the main rule book. That gave them better AP and the ability to hit AV targets but was slow firing. Nobody liked slow firing which is why we changed to the minervan stats and that AP5+/AT5+. That ends up blurring the line between the demi-century and the sagitarii a bit.

Fluff wise the demi-century is a generalist detachment, ok at shooting ok at FF and CC, ok armor. The Sagitarii are basically the same as the hypaspists but they are heavy weapons troops that are not attached to a demi-century. They are also linked more closely with their weapons so it warranted a better FF value to show their more effective use of the heavy weapons.

The differences are that the sagitarii bring more firepower, can engage armor, and lend better FF support than the demi-century.

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Is there a weapon with AP6+/AT5+? If so, that'd make a good option for the Servitors; allow the Sagitarii to fill more of an anti-vehicle role, and allow for an alternate list to have the servitors as upgrades to the Hypaspists as well, making them a better mixed-use formation.


There isn't any weapon that I've found. Most imperial AP weapons tend to be ap5+ and most mixed weapons seem to err on the side of AT6+ rather than AP 6+.

Having two distinct types of gun servitors is more fitting for what you say anyway. That allows HB gun servitors to be used for mixed formations in alternate lists and allows you to make the sagitarii become either a strong aniti-infantry detachment or an anti-vehicle detachment.

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:17 am 
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in this case, i'd probably just make the two servitors separate units. Vehicles it's easier to see what you've got, while epic scale infantry can get swamped without a good paint job.

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:22 pm 
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another thing we could do is have only the HB gun servitors and put the Rapiers back in the sagitarii with 45cm range restored rather than a generic lascannon servitor.

Sagitarii: 300 points, 5x Sagitarii and 5x Gun Servitors (HB). May replace servitors with 5x Rapiers for +25 (or +50?) points.

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:14 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
another thing we could do is have only the HB gun servitors and put the Rapiers back in the sagitarii with 45cm range restored rather than a generic lascannon servitor.

Sagitarii: 300 points, 5x Sagitarii and 5x Gun Servitors (HB). May replace servitors with 5x Rapiers for +25 (or +50?) points.

Not sold on the Gun Servitors still. Mainly because I feel the Sag's stats are in the air in till the ERC rules on some plasma stat. Plus it feels wonky and I still think there should be a Secutor in there as well.

Maybe scrap the AA on the ordtius and see how it fairs with just Flak upgrades?

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:45 am 
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We could just solve the entire thing by changing the plasma cannons to assault cannons. They have 30cm range with 5+/5+ ap/at.

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:33 am 
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Vaaish wrote:
another thing we could do is have only the HB gun servitors and put the Rapiers back in the sagitarii with 45cm range restored rather than a generic lascannon servitor.

Sagitarii: 300 points, 5x Sagitarii and 5x Gun Servitors (HB). May replace servitors with 5x Rapiers for +25 (or +50?) points.


I think this is a much better idea than two types of gun servitors.

My comment about vehicles (which I didn't explain very clearly) is that the actual weapon is significantly bigger than the one being carried by the infantry, making it easier to tell at a glance what sort of vehicle it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 8:22 am 
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Vaaish wrote:
We could just solve the entire thing by changing the plasma cannons to assault cannons. They have 30cm range with 5+/5+ ap/at.

We could do that...but A) Then there not cool Plasma guys I want....B) That wouldn't be a fun way to solve it :D

Making them Assault Cannons works for now IMO

However working out the Gun Servitors are still an issues. Maybe make them have shorter weapons? Or Speaicl ones with IC or MW or something? idk

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 Post subject: Re: Skitarii Legions Roadmap
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:05 pm 
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shorter ranged than a 30cm HB? I think that the HB as default will work well and having just two types caused enough of a fuss that I don't see even more options on them. I'm not opposed to something that would break them from the regular infantry mold and I've toyed with the idea of an INV save, but I don't think they warrant it. Perhaps a worse FF and CC?

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