Agree. If there is a real concern over AV-heavy armies, keep the elite and support slots based on Retinues. Armor could be taken in unlimited numbers as core, but would provide no support slots.


Agreed. I like the WE section to include all Fearless WEs.


I appreciate the flexibility but I don't really think this is needed.

I'd rather see this be bikes to keep the army more focused on assault instead of adding more shooty options. Also, if you put bikes into core, you've basically dismantled the support category, simplifying the list into 2 tiers. Keep the support based on Retinues to keep an element of the infantry-centric pre-heresy Legions and you end up with...

Retinues, Bikes and Armor as core
Terminators, Raptors, etc. as elites, 1 elite slot per Retinue
WE and Air

Defilers would be the obvious choice for new AA; their twin reaper autocannon is 90% of a hydra autocannon anyway. The main problem would obviously be the needed increase in points of an already too expensive unit.

LI had the Desecrator as an AA Defiler. Given what's available out there, perhaps something that swaps the Heavy Flamer for a Havoc Launcher and the Battlecannon for some sort of sonic AP/AT/AA Disrupt cannon?

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+1 for testing of armor formations in the core section. (on a personal bias note- I find the BL list boring to use, the armor in the main section might help me want to play them more often, then next to never.)

Can I just point out that using Defilers as AA means that players have to either buy a certain proxy, or make very fiddly scratch builds. At least obliterators are easily proxied out of the old robot models.

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The Word Bearers trilogy mentioned a multilegged daemon engine which spews some kind of warp flame to shoot down aircrafts. As well as Furies attacking Marauder Bombers and bringing some down.
IIRC that is the only instance of all Black Library books where Chaos AA is mentioned.

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Another option other than making armour Core: increase the number of support slots.

That would increase the number of activations without losing the Chaos Space Marines as the heart of the army.

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Steel Legion IG- provides options to play in different styles, all tanks, all infantry etc but pushes players towards playing as Steel Legion (ie Mech Inf) as that is, by far, the most effective way to use the list (reg HQ+2-3 Mech Co). If it wasn't an attempt to be Steel Legion rather than Imperial Guard then the SC wouldn't be restricted to the Mech Reg HQ formation.

Eldar - clearly not generic eldar but biel-tan. Aspects as a core, void spinners etc

Codex Marines - More generic but still represents Codex Chapters. Focus is on marines and air assault with limited armour not the different idiosyncracies of the non-codex chapters. If it was meant to be generic there would be no need for lists like the White Scars as you would just use the Codex list with more bikes chosen.

Orks - The armylist, being Orks, is quite open but again the best way to play them is not as all WEs, all fortresses, all KoS, based around stormboyz or any of the other types of build which differ markedly from a combined arms Ghazgkull horde. Other lists provide these options - Speed freeks, Blood Axes etc. If they were meant to be a generic list there would, like the White Scars, be no need for Speed Freeks.

If we move armour to core then IMO this will alleviate activation problems while keeping the focus , as it should be with a Black Legion rather than Chaos Marine list, on the Black Legionnaires. Retinues will still be the strength of the list, the only ground holding formation and source of AA

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Adding a defiler variant as a AA option might be the best fluff-wise but it doesn't really solve any issues as they will still be expensive and slow

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Since the list structure is up for debate anyway how about re-jigging it to allow better access to Hellblades (somehow, but not in a way that lets you buy even more Ferals) and making aircraft your only AA option, there are models available, and from a fluff POV are subordinate to the Legion (rather than being allies like the Imperial Navy).
Footslogging Obliterators don't really lend themselves to the assaulting role the list is supposed to take.

Infact, could you have Hellblades as a Core that doesn't add any support options, Talons as a Support option and then all of the fearless WE's as Elite slots?

What do you think of giving Land Raiders the ability to transport Obliterators?

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No particular objection - I was waiting to see if any 40k-lore people jumped on it

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I don't think it's allowed in 40k, but I think it's reasonable to assume that if they can carry 6 terminators then they can carry 3 obliterators, and if noone wants the Stalker it's probably the least invasive option.

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Well Codex Chaos Space Marines specifically mentiones Obliterators (and Lesser Daemons) as not being transportable in Land Raiders.
But that's in the rules section.

Fluff wise i would guess: They can Deep Strike so why use a transport vehicle?

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Seems ok for terminators

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