Recent depictions of the Black Legion in action (in the Night Lords series) seem to indicate they have access to a lot of tanks+vehicles

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Lots of tanks doesn't necessarily mean they should be a core formation, thus allowing armies that are 100% composed of AV, perhaps with a few terminators and oblige thrown in for good measure...

Another reason mech BL armies are rare is their lack of a fast AA unit like a hydra or a hunter.

Finding some way to make mech work wouldneffectively give a new core formation.

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I'm not sure that I can see that lots of predator formations would be an issue. SM can do it with the benefits of ATSKNF for small armour formations, AV long range AA and a better SR and its not effective for them.

My thought was that if you have Armour as a core choice then it will allow
- more activations as you have a 200pt core rather than 275
- more types of build, you wouldn't have to choose 3 retinues and work from there. For example 1 retinue with oblit, 2 armoured Co as your core choice

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Rhino upgrades are part of the core of the army and always have been. It's just that few people use them because of:
A) The cost and
B) The Issues with AA.

This forces BL lists down one or two basic builds with foot retinues + AA &/or drop pods with maximum titans and speedier fms from the other slots.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more variation in BL builds and would think that lowering the cost of the Rhino upgrade a tad might be a good way to achieve that.

All of the main Epic army lists are generic lists. They might have specific names but they are all meant to be generic in nature to allow people to build a multitude of potential armies.

JJ's stated intent disagrees.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

[citation needed]

I agree, it's hard to see how the core lists are limited in scope. The White Scars, Speed Freeks, Siegemasters, Ferals yes, but not the rulebook lists, nor the Eldar, BL or LatD.

Opening up armor as a core unit won't break the list. The list used to allow it and I don't recall an outcry over broken BL armored lists.

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My suggestions:
1) Make the retinue upgrades more flexible in terms of # of units - havocs and cult marines are huge point sinks as they are, and making an upgraded retinue mechanized is very unwieldy
2) I think the armored company core FM is a good idea (or at least warrants some testing)
3) look at bringing back the stalker - this could solve the whole AA/mechanized thing mentioned above.

I'm not sure where this "mech retinues are too expensive" thing is coming from. 40 pts to transport a retinue... To get any significant points savings from that you'd need to make them free, and that wouldn't even get you a dreadnought upgrade in some other FM. BL players (myself and others) in our gaming groups have used mech retinues to good effect, even without suitable AA tagging along.

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Given that there isn't a lot of AA options in the army for AV formations this will be a limiting factor in having al AV armies.



There isn't any unit in the background that fits this role. AA comes from Obliterators or aircraft.



Yes and no. There would still be the single entry.

To be fair to E&C I also don't recall anyone doing all AV lists so it would be something to test and look at. Most of the broken BL vehicle lists involved WEs and AVs

Ferals. Powerarmor hated them.

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Before the last review I played this army at an Open War tournament.

1 Raptors (5) + Warlord
2 Armoured Company - Predators (3) & Land Raider
3 Armoured Company - Land Raiders (4)
4 Armoured Company - Land Raiders (4)
5 Assault Company - Death Wheels (3)
6 Assault Company - Death Wheel (1)
7 Feral Titan
8 Feral Titan
9 Feral Titan

24 units and great fun to play with.

I think the issue is that the formation requires 60pts of Rhinos. Maybe if transport was free for the core BL troops in the Retinue and then you paid for the Rhinos for any upgrades?



I was never a fan of the Stalker. It was a unit that we created to solve a problem in the list and I still don't like the idea.



If you add a Cult upgrade or any other support troops that cost jumps to 60pts. That might not be a big cost with one formation but three Retinues could have 180pts in Rhinos. That is a lot of points.

Other thoughts for the Rhinos:

Cost them by pair (maybe 2 for 15)
Pay a flat cost to mechanize the formation and all upgrades (25-40 maybe?)

+1 to bringing the stalker back, just with some different stats.

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Dave

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Squats 2019-10-17