hmm...

all very interesting and kinda ties in with my How would one defend against an air assault post, clearly allowing you to use scouts to screen a formation from CC if you are not choosing to intermingle.

@Tim - I would push for a local rule that if a WE enters 2 or more ZoCs at the same time then one can choose who's is being entered for assault purposes.

But your point about a WE being allowed to use FF/CC as it sees fit is worth remembering. I assume the WE FF option is only available if there are enemy units involved in the assault which are not in base contact with the WE? So if all enemy units were in base contact with the WE it can only CC?

(I am afraid I am a little slow and need things spelled out with pictures and colours and lollypops to keep me focused)

I have no problem with that.

& you are correct if all enemy units are in btb then you can only choose to CC, unless you are a skimmer that is What you have to remember though is that WE CC and FF hits can only be placed on units that are in BtB/FF range only. This is different from the usual convention of CC hits being carried through a formation.

Correct, for a WE to use FF there have to be enemy units that are not in base to base.

The FAQ is there (as far as I am aware) to prevent this

<-Target ZOC(5cm to target)--2cm--<Scout ZOC--3cm--<Taget base>--7cm--<Scout base>

Assuming you are assaulting directly left to right. So you enter the target ZOC, but as per the rules may not enter a ZOC of a none engaged model (the scout) would be unable to continue to move directly towards the target unit.

Does that make sense?

Here is where it went wrong; landing the THawk in the SH ZoC means that you must charge them and not the EoV! In this case, you may move the termies 5cm out of the THawk into B-B with as many SH/SS as possible, but must actually avoid the EoV ZoC


Also note,

1. The activation is to declare the 'engage' (or Ground assault in this case), the target is not specified.
2. The THawk may *not* enter the ZoC of two enemy formations, it has to be placed in one or the other.
3. The transported troops disembark into the ZoC of units from the target formation, so must then use their 5cm disembarkation move to move towards those enemy units.
4. As Meph said earlier, you may land on top of the enemy units, barging them out of the way (eg to avoid landing in other enemy ZoC), but once you reach 2x the WE DC, the transported troops are locked in, so 'barge' carefully.
5. Under 3.3.1 WE may *not* 'barge' other WE.

No- allowing 'simultaneous' entry into two ZoCs is at the root of this problem and directly contravenes 1.7.3 and 1.12.3. While others may complain about the realism of the situation, it actually makes the game quite clear and then allows you to follow the intended process of entering into a single ZoC and moving from that point.

WE may only use FF against targets that are not in contact with it, and may only use CC on targets it is in B-B with. This does mean that a formation with several Super Heavy Tanks can use their FF to 'hose down the hulls' of other tanks in the formation - providing they have LoS to those enemy units (WE block LoS)

Regarding your point 2 - Can you point out where this is mentioned in the rules?



Ginger

I am afraid I do not buy what you are saying since 1.7.3 does not mention combined assaults or scouts with a ZoC of 10 etc. It states *all* units have a ZoC of 5, so of course it needs to be modified to take into account the scouts and WE/Airborn assaults.

Similarly, 1.12.3 does not specify combined assaults or airborn assaults and has already been modified by the FAQ regarding using scouts to screen... (personally I was taking this mod as applying to all units and not only scouts)

So essentially 1.7.3 and 1.12.3 are basic cases which need to be modified for special rules.

Section 4.2.5 Transporting Ground Units states, under the Air Assault section, that If this option is chosen then the aircraft and any units that disembark may enter enemy zones of control as if they were charging. Interpritation of this can of course also be different depending on our viewpoints/biases etc.

Are you at FSA this weekend? Maybe we can discuss this then?

There is clearly a conflicting understanding of the rules here - who makes the final ruling and what gives them the power to do so?

Scouts have a 10cm ZOC...its part of the Scout special rule.

Effectively it is down to the tournament organiser to make a ruling on the day, the power to do so being inherant in the fact they are tournament organiser and you have agreed to the terms of the tournament you have entered. For FSA that probably means if the above scenario comes up it will be down to either Steve54 or mephiston to make a ruling on the day.

Ignoring validity of assault / air assault questions and just answering your question.

You are only obliged to leave a ZOC or engage the owner of said ZOC if you begin an action in it. In the case of a consolidate move you are fine to move as you wish (or not move - up to you).

So you played it correctly.

For FSA it's down to Steve54 and the Epic-UK committee.

I may do the IT work for Epic-UK and sound like I'm in charge I'm really not

It might be usefull for Steve54 and Epic-UK committee to make a ruling on this before Saturday as, speaking for myself, I am more confused than ever and I am sure there are some who are planning on air assaulting and others who looking for defense against air assaults...

To hell with the confusion, if I'm worried about air assaults.. I'm going to dump everything on overwatch and pray that all my dice roll 6s and my opponents roll 1s

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Mephiston hit this right on the head in his first post. It's gotten way too complicated since then.


No. Consolidation moves follow the same standards as normal moves. You cannot end a consolidation move within the ZoC of any enemy unit. Whether they are broken or participated in the assault is irrelevant.


They must attempt to leave the ZoC to the best of their ability.

Note, however, in practice this is virtually never going to happen. If the scouts are not intermingled (see below) the scouts must be at least 5cm from the target unit. If they are at least 5cm away, the attackers could be no more than 5cm into the Scout ZoC. Therefore a 5cm consolidation move would allow them to move out of the ZoC range. It would take some sort of combination of ties and countercharges to draw the attackers further into the Scout ZoC before it would be impossible to withdraw.

As far as the situation described I think the determining fact is this:

The Scout "screen from behind" FAQ is for a theoretical situation where the scout formation cannot be intermingled, but can still project it's ZoC forward of the unit, creating a theoretical impenetrable zone by the overlap of 2 prohibitions in the rules - a non-participant ZoC cannot be violated, and you cannot pull them into the assault.

In this case, the scouts can be intermingled, so one of the prohibitions does not apply. You must intermingle the formations to reach CC.

That's not to say the attacker must intermingle the targets. It's still up to the attacker to decide. However, if you choose not to intermingle them then you must abide by the consequences of that choice, i.e. voluntarily give up the chance to CC because you must avoid the ZoC of the non-involved formation.

Incidentally, this applies to any formation, even if not Scouts. If you had 2 IG infantry companies laced together, you could not declare an assault on one of them and CC into the other's ZoC. You'd have to declare them intermingled or abide by the non-engaged formation's ZoC.

Basically, if you want to pick off one formation of an intermingled set, you are limited to FF.

====

Edit: Ack! I just realized the edited Scout FAQ in the 2008 FAQ omitted the reference to intermingling when describing the "screen from behind" situation.

I think Steve made his opinion fairly clear in the follwoing thread.
viewtopic.php?f=95&t=22414&start=15

I wouldn't worry too much about all this ZOC arguing, the ZOC rules are some of the most complicated in the game. But they are ten times more complicated to try and discuss in text on the internet than they are if you just throw some models on the table and play the game.

There is no rule to that effect, a unit must move out of a ZOC it begins its activation/action within. No other rule exists, you could make a ruling or FAQ change to what you have quoted, but it is not the current rule - and does beg the question what happens if I make my 5cm consolidation move and cannot end out side an enemy ZOC no matter which direction I move.