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Gargant Bigmob 3.04

 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I don't see a great need to upgrade the mega gargant unless it's seen to be under-performing... What spot did you finish in?

2nd...... OK I see your point :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Could you do me the favour of posting your army list, and noting what 3 armies you fought against, too? Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Could you do me the favour of posting your army list, and noting what 3 armies you fought against, too? Thanks.

"BIG BAD BLUE" Mega Gargant 1050 pts, no weapon changes
"Big Yella" Great Gargant 850 pts, 4 BP and 1 lifta droppa
"Little Jonny" Slasher Gargant 650 pts, 4 BP and 1 zapp gun
"The Fly Boys" 3x3 fighta bombers

Round 1 vs Steel Legion (I think) Guard. A very good mix of units.
Round 2 vs Vanilla Marines. Again a well rounded army.
Round 3 vs Eldar. Unfortunetly I dont know the Eldar that well, so not 100% certain of what I was killing, but he did state it was a Titan killing army with 3 Cobras.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:57 pm 
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Well I had the 3rd “Eldar” army as follows:-
    400 Shining Spears, Ex & Au
    700 2x Guardians in Wave Serpents
    350 Phoenix Bombers
    750 3x Cobras (separate formations)
    250 Void Spinner
    250 Falcons with 2x Firestorms
    200 Bikes, 1x Vyper
    100 Rangers
Things did not go at all well in the 1st turn. I had castled most of the army behind a hill, but failed to notice that he had placed his fully shielded MG on a road. I won the strategy roll and let him go first whereupon his MG motored up the road to a point where it could just see 2x units of the ‘castle’, so was able to drop 3x templates over the entire lot. Then he doubled his GG and shot a Guardian formation. Finally his FBs destroyed 2x broken cobras (the 3rd failed to rally for the rest of the game).

I was within a whisker of calling it after his first two activations (which had broken or destroyed 1500 points of troops), but decided to carry on and concentrate on destroying the monster with what remained while hiding from everything else. In the end he wiped out the few remaining rangers and my BTS remnants in his table half claiming 2-0.

On reflection, while very powerfull indeed, I suspect that the Gargant Bigmob list probably needs more ground forces to support the big beasts, so at 3000 points, 2x Gargants of any size are probably the limit.

Battle Vs the Mega Gargant – an analysis
Over the game, I threw 1400 points at it, got lucky to break it early in turn #2 and luckier still for it not to rally. I had three formations shoot effectively at it seven times, and three others assault it (which destroyed two formations outright and broke the third).

Here is what happened in each turn as far as I remember the detail.
  1. Void Spinner 5x hits (disrupt); Rangers OW, Bikes - 8BMs (7x shields remain). End phase it rallied, leaving 3BM.
  2. Phoenix Bombers (1 down to MWAA) 3x hits, VS 3x hits (disrupt), Falcons 4 hits (2x damage). The bikes then assaulted it in a do-or-die attempt and to our mutual surprise scored 2x hits for the loss of only three bikes and won the roll off! The MG failed to rally in the end phase. Broken, 12DC.
  3. PB (6x hits 3x damage), VS 5x hit, 2x damage; Falcons 3x hits, 1x damage; Guardian assault (falcon support) 5x hits, 3x damage; Avatar assault, Falcon support 4x hits, 2x damage.

Attacking it takes 2-3 distinct phases; removing shields, breaking it if possible, and finally reducing the DC. Barrage weapons are actually more effective at removing shields than most conventional or TK weapons, because the size of the thing gives you 8x dice usually removing 4x shields a go. When reducing the DC, remember to cross-fire if at all possible.

Is it balanced?
I would say it is considering the forces arrayed against it. BUT, arguably it is actually slightly weaker than a Great Gargant because of the 4+RA on the GG. It does mean that conventional forces have some chance to destroy it while the GG can only be realistically taken on by TK armed troops. This being the case, I could see an argument for making it’s shields D6 + 9 to reflect its size.

That said, I also think the GG is slightly under-costed at 850, and definitely should not be allowed extra shields for 50 points.

What if - - -
With a different deployment and start of the game, in turn #1, the Eldar should be able to out-activate the Orks, using the last 6x activations to move the Cobras and Warhosts into position for turn #2; using the Void Spinner and Phoenix Bombers to weaken the shields on one Gargant (on average they will remove 7x shields from a Gargant, 9x from a GG and 11x from a MG). Meanwhile, the Ork aircraft should concentrate on the Void Spinner, destroying it and probably breaking a Cobra as well for the loss of 2-3 a/c.

Assuming the Eldar win the SR, in turn #2, they triple retain to use the VS or PB to remove the final shields and 2x sustained Cobra shots to get 8x, 12x and 16x TK hits respectively, which should kill any of the targets. However, one or both will almost certainly be flattened in response by the other Gargants and Ork air-force.

Assuming the remaining forces are not idle, this should leave one other Gargant broken, which means the Eldar should be in position to grab sufficient objectives in turn three to claim Blitz, CTF and possibly BTS for a 2 point victory.

However, the list *was* specifically tailored to give a reasonable chance of taking on titans, I just played it appaulingly badly here :P


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:08 am 
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How did he manage to kill so much stuff with the barrage?

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:13 am 
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Gavin had about 6 formations all intermingled behind a hill. The Gargant managed to get a peek around the hill, and nuked them all.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Wow they must really have been packed in! Sure, 3 templates, but still only 15cm end to end.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:43 pm 
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They were hiding behind a piece of terrain. In the 5 minute warm-up (done after deployment, unfortunately) both players agreed it was a swamp rather than a forest so it didn't block LoS.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:53 pm 
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carlos wrote:
They were hiding behind a piece of terrain. In the 5 minute warm-up (done after deployment, unfortunately) both players agreed it was a swamp rather than a forest so it didn't block LoS.

Something like that, yeah. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:05 pm 
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I had Falcons (the formation he could 'ping' two of), Guardians in their Wave serpents, three cobras and Shining spears bringing up the rear. The rules on Barrages specify that you place the 1st template to cover the *unit* in range (and LoS here), but this can be at one edge of the template which then extended behind the hill; and the other two templates touching it must be placed to cover the target formation. In this case it provided a triangle of MW templates that covered the entire 'castle'.

However, he had doubled and the units were out of sight requiring "7" to hit vehicles and "6" to hit infantry. Consequently he only zapped one Wave Serpent and three Shining Spears, but the 8BP barrage applied 3x BMs to every formation, automatically breaking the three cobras and the Shining Spears.

He retained, shooting a Guardian formation to bits with his Great Gargant, shooting over a 'swamp'. In the UK tourny circuit, such terrain is usually considered to block LoS, even though the physical terrain piece ia some hardboard decorated with scatttered rocks and greenery, but here he wanted to play it differently and I agreed. I made two fundemental mistakes; I forgot this definition and I played the way we usually do, putting a guardian formation 'hidden' behind it.
(Indeed, I then moved some of the broken formations into the same 'safe' place to be near my Blitz, but outside my AA umbrella - where they were subsequently destroyed by his Fighta Bombaz)


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Quote:
...here he wanted to play it differently and I agreed.

Which is the most gentlemanly and good-sporting way to play, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:18 am 
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carlos wrote:
They were hiding behind a piece of terrain. In the 5 minute warm-up (done after deployment, unfortunately) both players agreed it was a swamp rather than a forest so it didn't block LoS.

It wasnt before deployment. Though it may have looked that way as I plonked my Gargants down before the game and they didnt move until we started. The terrain and my opponents set up makes very little difference to how you set up 3 Gargants :)

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
...here he wanted to play it differently and I agreed.

Which is the most gentlemanly and good-sporting way to play, of course.
+1

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Yeah those blast markers are always going to be the scary part, particularly for Eldar. In my head a 15cm triangle doesn't seem like a huge area, but I guess if you think you're out of sight you bunch up nice and cosy don't you? You only need to cover one unit to get the BMs too.

So it sounds like normally people play "all terrain blocks line of sight" rather than model's eye view etc? What about being covered by templates - anything touching at least one model, or perhaps more than half a unit?

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Quote:
So it sounds like normally people play "all terrain blocks line of sight" rather than model's eye view etc?

Yup, that's generally how it's played in my experience.

Quote:
What about being covered by templates - anything touching at least one model, or perhaps more than half a unit?

The former is recommended in the rulebook.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Bigmob 3.04
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:29 am 
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model's eye view at 6mm high?

wah.

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