And Titans will always be available in the Armageddon list. And if you don't want to use Titans, you can use the Badab list instead.

This is a perfect use for the variant list system. We have a balanced list (Codex Marines), but some of the (huge number) of units are lesser used. Instead of tinkering with it and potentially upsetting balance (which Dobbsy's list of only buffs are a good candidate for, as he has said repeatedly), make another list that features those units.

I have confidence in Dobbsy as Space Marine Champion to not screw it up, and he certainly won't put unbalanced playtest changes into the Armies Book.

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Or just use the codex list but don't pick titans when you choose your list if you don't want to use titans. SM list is still perfectly competitive without titans (like the SL) but just not quite as good as with titans (like the SL)

If your opponent chooses not to use WEs too, in whatever list, then their list likely won't be quite as good as with WE also.

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This is the exact reason for the Badab list – I think the Codex Astartes list is great, and the way forward for it is minor tweaks, as Dobbsy is proposing. However, the Badab list addresses some of the desires/complaints about the list that I've seen here; and aims to provide a complementary alternative – not a replacement.

The Badab list is intended only to be used as a 'junior partner' to Codex Astartes; and should be regarded as a Campaign-specific list, rather than a Tournament one.


The term 'fan list' sounds a little perjorative – I'd appreciate it if you gave it the same respect as the other campaign lists, even if you don't like it. That said, please do feel free to ignore it, though it would be very appreciated if you'd at least give it a look.

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I'm just curious if players that want to play a list like this have seen the Black Templars list?
It really is a good Marine list with no Titan or Navy support.

No need to reinvent the wheel

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It's good, except...

- No devastators or whirlwinds
- Mandatory Emperor's Champion (ok, not the worst thing in the world), but then the big one...
- Fantastically restrictive - only 2 support per tactical formation? Make it 3 and it's still harsh, but it's playable as something other than a tactical horde or with maxed out air support.

Apart from that it's an excellent list for general use. Can always pretend the Land Speeders are LS Storms with Scouts inside

Hmm, I figured they could be put in the book for 2012 actually so we get a full year's play with them.... People then won't have to go in search of the changes.

Would people prefer not to have them listed in the Armies book? Easily solved.


"Never a wiser word was said."

I'm happy for a Badab-specific Marine list to be written (that's the beauty of a community-driven game). But personally, I don't see it as entirely necessary (not "completely unnecessary" as I don't want to stifle people's artistic endeavour) but we already have several lists that do a number of different designs for Marines. I worry there's too much choice on this front already really.

i think its a good idea to have them listed in the army book, changes dont seem unbalaced after a few games with them, and having a whole year to test them in the army book seems fair

I think something to keep in mind is that there are things which can't be fixed with pricing. Some units just don't fit, and that has nothing to do with stats and pricing.

Dreadnoughts don't fit the SM list. They slow down a small, fast force that has to concentrate effort. That's not a problem with the stats/points. It's a conflict between the unit's abilities and the style of the list.

Pred Destructors don't fit. The SM list has lots of decent FF and sufficient AP firepower. When most of your list has an ability, there's just no need for specialists in that area. Even at 225 in the EUK list, there aren't that many showing up in tourneys, so clearly price is not the issue.

Tinkering won't change that. Until you make those kinds of units and formations so cheap that spamming them becomes effective(/overpowered), you just won't see them.

Possibly. We won't know that for a while though.... <shrug> We can but try.

Put in anything you have confidence in, and hold back on anything you think of as too risky. You're the champion. :-)

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Is there somewhere that these lists can be found? I seem to remember that someone had helpfully collected tournament lists together; and as a tournament outsider, it'd be very interesting for me to see.

Also, is it possible that there's a sample size bias on 'effective lists'? Looking at the Epic-UK calendar, Open War XVI and the Epic-UK GT both have fewer than 20 participants; of whom nearly half played in both events. There's only 36 people in the Epic-UK Championship – who; again are commonly the same people as played in those two tournaments.

Back on-topic, if you don't think that price will see more Predator Destructors (for example), do you support the 3+FF change, or are you happy for them simply to be a suboptimal choice?

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Industrious, red-robe wearing member of the PCRC

Head into the championship pages then follow the list link.

As to attendance you are correct. But if the same people keep coming back then something must be good about it wouldn't you think?

14 is the average attendance at Epic-UK Championship events this year.

Go to the championship page 73 players listed (under players) look at lists and you'll see all the lists. These represent players from at least 10 groups, I think you will struggle to find a sample even approaching this size anywhere else.

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