And at some point there is an abstraction. Figuring out all the different placements and rolling a dice seems pretty clunky...

They are just another form of attack, correct. What I'm saying is nothing is really able to target a specific unit short of sniper. Why should BP weapons get that boon where nothing else does.

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we play that you also have to place the first template fully within range of the shooting unit. If it's a direct fire weapon (like Gargant), then LOS also applies. So no sniping around corners just because you've got a template (perfectly fine for indirect fire though).

cheers,
M

Because life is harsh, and presumably Jervis thought that command / special units shouldn't be automatically invulnerable to barrages just by always placing them at the back.

Here's his email exchange with Nealhunt on the matter:
http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 48#p366448


Also, from 2003 on the Specialist Games development Blog, when Jervis was writing the rules:




So basically, you can of course feel free to house rule it a different way if you'd prefer to play the game with less powerful barrages, but the intent of the way the rule is supposed to work is clear.

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The rule actually states that only one unit under the template need be in range and LOS. Being (partially) beyond range and LOS is legal according to the standard rules. 2nd "flipped" templates can even be placed completely out of range and LOS.

Nothing's stopping you from house-ruling it your way, of course.

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yeah, that's what was strange to us. It was enough to see one unit and be in range of just the one base to legally shoot at the whole formation which was actually hiding behind terrain out of LOS.
Also we felt that the standard rule gave you "extra range"... imagine a 'uge ork mob and just one base in range - you could probably place the first template 30 cm (or any other distance) further away (depending on how far the orc formation is streched).

also we didn't like the "shoot around a corner" effect...

hence the house-rule

cheers,

I thought the rules say that you have to place the first barrage so at lest one unit is within range and LOS of every firing unit. In your example, this means that the first barrage has to affect that one visible orc. The actual overshooting can therefore never exceed slightly less than two barrage templates. When it comes to barrage fire ranges, you just have to take that range increase in calculation.

As for shooting round corners, even direct BP firing could be assumed to have some trajectory. Also, blasting at the cover in question (buildings/ruins/woods etc) would probably be just as lethal to troops hiding behind/within it. I read a quite horrifying description of how Soviet tanks fired at the tree tops in a forest full of Germans trying to reach the American forces. Countless people died from burning, falling tree tops.

/Fredmans

yeah, the first template needs to be at it's touching atleast 1 unit that is in range and LoS for all participants, so you cant say "this unit is in range, so i'll shoot the back of the formation instead" unless you can walk the templates over there by a big enough BP. the initial template needs to be placed touching a valid target.

as to firing around corners, if you've only got LOS to one model you can assume that more models are nearby (plus, the idea is that additional information on general troop whereabouts is presented to you via other surveillance methods) so it stands to reason that you'll place the barrage into the direction of cover the troops are likely in.

also, remember that the template is an abstraction. that is the point where the shots are falling with enough frequency to cause the likelyhood of hits, you can assume that the odd shot is landing outside the template, but not doing enough damage to justify additional rolls or scatter. the template represents a concentration of fire, not an explosion itself.

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All those address how dice are rolled though and how hits are allocated to various types of units under the template. I'm not disputing that, those rules make sense and that's how we play it.

Essentially my argument boils down to the defender gets to choose to allocate hits with all other forms of attack so long as he adheres to the front to back stipulation. Barrages have to adhere to maximizing the template and having one unit under it being within range and LoS, but after that why does the attacker get to choose which group the barrage is placed over if there's more then one maximized group?

Sidetrack question:

Say we have a sustaining formation out of LoS of an enemy formation that is completely within 30cm except for one unit. Can the attacker place the first template over that one unit (it is within indirect fire range because its more than 30cm away) and maximize it and then have additional templates fall on those units within 30cm of it? By my reading it can.

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Because you're rolling to hit and allocate as a single process on an individual basis, as outlined in the links & quote above, the defender does not allocate hits when being attacked by a barrage.

When you're dealing with barrages, what you hit is what you hit; There is no separate allocation stage as with AP/AT type shooting.


Because in cases where you're attacking an equal number of units, the rules say the choice goes to the attacker as to which set he would like to attack.

If one of those sets contains a command unit and the attacking player choses to attack that set, you can assume it's because his scouts or satellite recon has informed him that the set containing the command unit is more likely to contain valuable targets, or something.

There's nothing wrong with house-ruling the situation and saying that players should randomise which set should be attacked, but there's nothing in the wording of the rules that says you should do that.


I believe the answer is "yes".

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Where is that explicitly stated though?

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It's a conclusion that comes from reading the rules:




Since you're the person firing the barrage, you're also the person who's placing the template.
All the references to friendly and enemy formations, as well as repeated referrals to an active "You" rather than "Your Opponent" imply that it's the active "You" who is placing the template.

Conversely, nowhere does it say, "In a case of two groups of enemy units consisting of exactly the same number of units, your opponent is allowed to decide which group of units you should place the template on top of".

The inference is that, as long as you place the template to hit as many units as possible, in cases where a choice is available the active "You" chooses where to place the template.

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The only justification in the rules that support the attacker choosing targets is the fact that the attacker can elect to not shoot at units in cover if the target formation has units in both cover and the open. The barrage rules themselves do not explicitly state who places the templates.

Barrages are an abstraction and as E&C has said when Jervis was consulted his reply does indicate that the allocation rules are not used in this process.

When it's all said and done as the rules say placing templates can get to be a prickly subject. As ever discuss this in your 5 min warm up. Remember to agree whether its just base covered or a model on a base to be hit, this isn't defined in the rules either.

I think most players expect the attacker to chose were the template goes, but the defender gets to check and agree that the count and placement are ok. This is what happens at UK tournaments for whats that worth. If two valid options are available then again the attacker gets to chose.

This is the method I've always used, too.

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