Big Post Time!

Thoughts on normal SM list:
First question: where are things standing in regard to the Army Book? Hena collected up everyone's lists and made some changes to the standard list - is that stuff still going forward, or are you compiling it all again?

In general, I agree with E&C, GlynG, Signal, MikeT, etc. Looking at the most current version of the Marine list (completely ignoring changes made for the Army Book, since I'm tired and don't want to look them up):

Unit stats:
The Captain:
One option would be to replace him wholesale with the Supreme Commander. Another option might be giving him reinforced armor (to represent the presence of an Apothecary, his own artificer armor, and his Iron Halo). One could give him Scout or Infiltrators, to represent the associated veterans. Sniper, to represent his superior precision.

The problem is that any improvement to him logically follows through to the Supreme Commander, and the SC's just fine. Of course, the SC is mostly taken for his reroll, I think. So improving his CC ability wouldn't actually make him that much more desirable.

The Predator Destructor
First, it should be FF3+. It's got at least as much firepower as a Devastator squad, and can concentrate it better - FF has always seemed to represent quantity of firepower as much as anything else. IIRC, a poll a while ago got pretty good support for at least testing such a change.

The problems with the Predator formation stem at least in part from the fact that the Destructor simply isn't worth as much as the Annihilator - fixing that will make it easier to balance the formation. Adding Librarians might happen, but we can always just pretend they're Techmarines. Disparities with the Russ can be explained through superior Space Marine technology and training.

Razorbacks
Either the HB Razorback should get +1FF, or the LC Razorback should get -1FF.

Spaceships
Personally, I'd like it if the spaceships had slightly larger transport capacities - right now you can't squeeze in a Dreadnought with your Battle Company. The Strike Cruiser is also short a BP (2WB = 1BP, 1BC = 1BP, going by the Battle Barge).

I think it also might be worth considering giving Space Marines some pin-point attacks (1 for the Strike Cruiser and 2 for the BB, maybe?). While I could understand some reluctance, the list is very weak in that area and it's a large part of the popularity of Warhounds, as I understand it.

Regarding upgrades:
Why does the Attack Bike option even exist? The formation could be "any combination of Bikes and Attack Bikes" and the change would be precisely none. And it would be one less upgrade.

No Razorbacks for Scouts. They need transports, and adding the Storm would be cumbersome (IMO), but giving them the Chapter's best Rhino-based transports doesn't make much sense either.

In regard to restricting aircraft:
I did it, and I think it was the right move for the Apocrypha. However, it's not necessarily compelled for the main list.

Comparing your proposed cost changes:
Tacs to 275 - fine. Sensible, even.
LR optional upgrade - fine to some extent, though I would point out that Tacs don't usually run around in Land Raiders. With, perhaps. But not IN.
Predator optional upgrade - A, you'll need to make one. B, that's a rather large change for the basic list.
LRs at 300, 75 - I'd support the second. I'm not sure about the first - 325 might be better.
Vindicators - I don't know that they're that bad. If you give them Walker, I think they'd be worth 225. Not common as dirt, but a reasonable choice.
Dreads to 25 with 4+ - I like the 4+, but I don't know that I like 25 each.
Thunderhawks to 250 - speaking as someone who actually did this - do 225. 250 is likely excessive (for all that the variants are apparently worth that, and they can't do Air Assaults like the base version...)
Warhound - 300 each is overkill. 275 plus the critical is good for the moment - if they're still common as dirt, that will be noticed.
Scouts to 175 - Yes. But do NOT remove the Rhinos.
Predators - they need something. Especially if you cut Land Raiders to 300.

Overall, I'd have to say it's too much too quickly. Not that you shouldn't make some changes, but this is a lot. I'd say drop Tacs, LRs, Preds, and Vindicators by 25 points and increase Scouts and Thunderhawks by 25, at a maximum. Even that'd be a lot for one update to a core list.

Thoughts on Apocrypha:
Generally, I want to leave the list alone for a while and let it mellow. Whatever version gets published IS going to be publicly left alone for at least six months.

That said, I've got a variety of changes I'm thinking about (including the name, since many people don't seem to get the reference and my chapter-with-a-suitable-name is almost done). For example, I left the Predator cost at 275 because going lower seemed too radical. Now EUK's down at 225 and I feel all square and old-fashioned (and also like I was right all along, but that's another issue ). Many of the proposals for the SM list, if accepted, would make the AoS even less distinct, and I'd need to deal with that. Plus, the costs would be all out of whack compared to the base list - indeed, a lot of the costs are as they are because the base list was where it was and Hena was already of the opinion that the list was just "basic list plus more stuff that's cheaper".

Furthermore, looking at the list, I'm not happy with some of the compromises I made and can think of better ways to deal with them. Plus, there's some stuff I could cut without appreciably affecting the list's feel, and so I suspect I probably should if I get the chance.

Points of contention include the concept of the list, the inclusion of both old and new stuff, and the inclusion of Tarantulas in any form other than completely immobile gun batteries. Oh, and whether to go cheaper or keep costs closer to the main list.

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I assume the reduction is partially a consequence of the comparative Tornado becoming free rather than 10 points Neal, as though the Typhoon is better I’m not convinced it’s worth 25 points extra than a Tornado for +2AP ability and +15cm range (certainly not for a whole formation worth). The extra range is helpful sometimes, but the unit is speed 35cm and garrisonable, so it can get into range easily enough.

Are you aware that’s the pricing cost Epic-UK have reduced it to? We don’t know how much it was tested or what the reasoning was – unless someone involved there comments – but it presumably has been tested and judged wanting at higher costs. Personally I think 25 points is too expensive and while 10 points may be slightly too cheap it could be ok (15 or 20 could also be possibilities).


Do you suggest revising the Commander ability Neal? What would you suggest doing? I thought the reason we weren’t changing rulebook stuff is that it’s unlikely to get changed on the GW site and therefore it is better to have the core rules stay the same for us all in that case?

Changing Commander seems to me a lot more trouble than it would be worth. Commanders appear in nearly all or all lists and repercussions could be widespread and not immediately obvious. It’s the SM Captain that is specifically not much good, whereas other Commanders may be good as is and become too good with potential Commander boosts.

There was talk of allowing commander to be used defensively back in the 07 revisions.

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+1 Meph, a lot of hot air - - -
But to vent my pet theme

Make Warhound singletons 0-1 for the army (at the current price, and with the new critical)
If you want more, then buy them in pairs.

I might add that if this is adopted, then there should be no other changes made at all! IMHO it is the use of singlton Warhounds that has skewed the list since its inception. The increase in price to 275 achieved a greater degree of perceived balance by removing the '4x Warhound' list. Doing this will significantly address the perceived balance issues.

I believe there's historical precedent for this too (along with it being fluffy). When I played a game with ePilgrim (who had a hand in EA before it was published) I asked him whether or not his two Warhound were one or two formations. His response was that you weren't allowed to take more than one on its own, for balance reasons. At some point that obviously changed, but it's probably so long ago that few remember.

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That's out of the realms of this discussion, and not in the purview of the Marine Champion.

(Personally I'd rather see a 15cm range for Commander instead).

Commander does seem to be the least used character ability, but changing it would impact far too many other lists.

Your only real option would be to make a marine specific variant, kinda like what was done for the Tau, called something like Astartes Commander or something. Then you could look at extending the range to 15cm, or making it usable on defence as well.

As I keep needing to mention these are just proposed changes. Some might happen, some might not. I'm getting the feedback I would like so far so I can try and navigate the choices. In the end quite a few are for change and quite a few are against and there's some who would like a minimal change. Regardless, change isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just that people who win with(or lose against) marines tend not to want change and the reverse is also true.

My preference is to try and make Marines more usable "out of the box" for new players. If that means a few tweaks then that's what will occur. If people give me good reasoning against that then it might not.


Steve I don't think that's necessary. That's why we're here - to discuss possible changes. You're entitled to your views as are the others.

Let's not all start getting fed up because discussion is occuring.

Well perhaps they are.... It may be why you see them in Chaos lists more than in SM lists. They share a similar tank, the nuances of both lists can easily account for a similar price cost - Chaos get access to a ton of gear that Marines don't and you still see LR getting used. Perhaps 325 would be better for a formation but I don't think 300 is too OTT in comparison to a Warhound at 275. In the end they are already 75 points per upgrade regardless of whether they replace a Rhino (which I believe aren't costed in the codex list right?). The odd 10-12.5 point additional cost per tank for a fm of 4 just seems sort of inconsequential when compared to how often they get used (hardly ever). I'd really like to at least trial them at 300 and revert them if needs be.


I'm not sure I share your view on the cost Neal, but what would you suggest as a starting cost instead? Thinking outside the box, could an all-Land Speeder Typhoon fm be separately costed to avoid this issue, say 275? I've never been a fan of 15 point increments.


OK it's a starting point I can see a possible fm multiplier - but I still feel it's the same as the LR issue of little-to-no-use in many lists overwhelming a 25-point cost adjudication. I'd much rather see things cheaper to see more use than worry about adding the extra cost to a formation when the upgrades are 50 points each....


OK fair point. How do you view the 75 points for 2 idea? Loadouts not withstanding.


I'm leaning towards leaving this change for the moment after the discussion in the TH thread.


No worries, I will be leaving this for now I think.


OK good to know.


Will that happen? That's beyond my control unless I change the SM commander ability. It's also a force multiplier I'm not yet sure I want to, or should, introduce. It works with the Space Wolves but there's a reason for that.

What about "for 25 points up to two Land Speeders may be replaced with Typhoons. For 50 points, up to 5 may be replaced." I despise the fiddly 10-15 pt pricing, and this would get around it. Obviously the numbers might be better off different, but I think a flexible pricing structure might help.

Just to pipe in on this one - I rarely see them in tournament Chaos Lists (by players that want to win the tournament - anyway). They are just too damn expensive for what you can get for the same price. So I am not sure if the above is necessarily correct.

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I more often see Predators or P/LR mixes, than pure Chaos LR formations.

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about the only time i've ever seen chaos land raiders as a pure formation was when i took them, and i was thoroughly underwhelmed. i'd think they're not worth 300 points without leader in them

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I don't think that would be a good idea – we’ve always been able to freely mix them in with other sorts and it’s quite useful to add 1-3 in to a normal formation sometimes (often depends how many left over points you have). It’s also tricky to get 5 of the actual Typhoon models so a full formation of them might not be used much: the Land Speeder pack by GW contains 3 normal Land Speeders, 1 Tornado (which can easily be used as a regular LS if you leave the second underside weapon off) and 1 Typhoon (which couldn't without converting/green-stuffing as the missiles fit into holes in the side where the rear hatches normally are). I bought 5 packs to get 5 Typhoons and sold on the extra normal ones, but it’s a bit much to expect.

Fair enough for not liking 15 point increments (I don't either). For clarity what are your feeling on possible 20 point (and multiples of) increments in the list as well as 25 point ones Dobbsy? Are they more ok or also to be avoided? To me they’re less fiddly than 15 points somehow and could be a possible option to add more flexibility to adjustments than costing everything into 25 point multiples.

Potential uses could include Dreadnoughts, Vindicators and Captains (as a possible alternative to any other boost for him) at 40 points each. In a new combined Armour upgrade with 'Add 0-2 of the following vehicles:' a single attached Predator Destructor could be costed at 50 points (I doubt it’d be taken at 75), an attached Predator Annihilator could cost 60 and an attached Vindicator could drop to 40 (all upgrades costing less than they do in formations as attachments are generally worth less than new formations). Though I see separate formations of Destructors and Vindicators as being worth about the same, an attached Vindicator is worth less as it slows down its formation and requires getting within 30cm range to shoot (where infantry can then assault back) whereas an attached Predator doesn’t. Particularly if Typhoons are either 10 or 20 points it should be easy enough to avoid left-over points.

We could also try and fix weaker upgrades by the previously discussed 'add 1 for 50 or 2 for 75' style upgrades, but that gives a bit less flexibility to relative balancing (as there's likely to be more units we'd like to cost relatively less/more than each other than there are available costing options, meaning some upgrades will still be weaker and less used than others) and list choices (as it forces those units to be taken in pairs to be worth it).

LR vs Warhound is IMHO a bad comparison - Warhounds are, point for point among the cheapest and most powerfull formations available to the marines, and as I have said earlier are apparently one of the 'staples' chosen by the competitive players. This comparison does not prove that LRs are too expensive - rather than Warhounds are potentially too cheap (or more accurately, should not be available as singltons!)

LRs are a bit like Dreadnoughts - they have to be put into the correct position to work well. Dreadnoughts work very well if used in defensive garrisons, or in airborne assault roles. LRs are the same, except that they are slightly more mobile:- they come into their own as a mobile AT defense force (lurking behind terrain) or in an assault role if put inside a Landing craft.

Consider the effect of plannetfalling two Devastator formations with LR upgrades towards the middle of the table, followed by a sustain - a single Dev formation will kick out 8x AT5+ and 4x AT3+ shots, or 8x AP4+ and 2x AP3+ - - - - - and you have two such formations as well as the AT shots from the Landing craft. and the whole lot can then be moved as needed.
(You could add a formation of Assault marines for good measure if you want overkill )

Or for the assult minded, try using a formation of Land Raider Crusaders supporting Terminators upgraded with Dreadnoughts. Planetfall close to the enemy, and you have 2-3 assaults all with RA armour (with the Termies kicking out a serious amount of assault /support dice). And the three formations stand a reasonable chance of holding out untill you can move the rest of the army up to join them.

The point here guys is that you have to play to their strengths, not to their weaknesses (poor shooting range and relatively poor mobility). The current cost of 350 pts for the formation and 75pts for upgrades are really OK, and possibly even slightly cheap!

And as for the Chaos marine list, it is designed to be slower than the standard marines and deliberately has no airmobile capability - and yet according to the EPIC-UK stats the Chaos variant is actually doing rather better than the normal one! Lets not get sidetracked down the path of comparing apples and pears here guys - they are different lists that intentionally play very differently!