Not targeting systems, I mean the physical mount of the weapon. Imperial designs rarely if ever mount HB in a way that they can move to track airborne targets. The closest thing I can think of would be a HB Chimera or a Razorback and I can't see why Admech would break the trend.

I'd see the praetorians gain AA with their autocannons as a more likely candidate than HB.

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-Vaaish

To protect their insanely valuable relics, I guess?

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I like it. There is historical precedent for a machine gun being able to be used in an AA role. It would give the Ad Mech a little more flexibility in not having to take Hydras. Would there be any points change?

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

I think I understand the reasoning, but I feel both Ordinatii are undergunned with secondaries as it is. I could deal, I guess.




Excellent.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

No.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

If this discussion needs its own thread, please split it.

This list is currently without any options faster than 20cm. How do you expect it to play?

I am trying to build a list I like, and forsee a disproportianate number of Tank Cataphracts, due to their combination of speed and AT firepower. The entire list generally lacks in AT as well; Demi-Legions' only real sources of AT are Rapiers and Hunters. Ordinatii can dish the AT, but only if the enemy comes to them; with a 10cm move they aren't running anyone down. I hesitate to take a Majois or a Minoris Company with AT (not TK) weapons, due to the fact they are really only good as long range fire support. or to hold objective on my side of the board while my faster formations run across the board like gangbusters. Do you have a concept of how this army will win games, because it looks underpowerd to me on paper?

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

We're gonna have Rhinos as an option for Skitarii, for starters. :-)

Also, Warhound Titans move 30cm.


Tank formations, Ordinatii, and customisable Titans which can be made for AT duties.

Warhound Titans that put out 8x AT3+ @ 60cm range is not a list that is weak on AT.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Rhinos. At least they're faster. I do tend to forget about titan support as I have an almost pathlogical dislike of it, except in a Titan Legions List. THat's my problem though.



Again about the titans. The Warhounds are not the list. I know that is a case of imprecise language, but the list is about the Skitarii and non-Titan AdMech engines, and needing to bring Titans along for an effective list bothers me.

Cost of dual-Turbolaser single Warhound: 350
cost of ordinatus majoris with dual turbos:450

Cost of Warhound pack with three turbos and another weapon: 575
cost of Minoris Company with all turbos: 525
Cost of Majoris with attached minoris, threee turbos total: 600- note the warhounds get another scout-class weapon, say a PBG, to supplement thier firepower in the above two cases

cost of warhound pack with quad turbos: 625
cost of reinforced Minoris company with four turbos: 700

Ordinatii have the 1/3 the move, same armor, worse CC, worse or equal FF, no Fearless, no walker, same voids, and generally worse total DCs, and cost more, except in one of the cases where you can get an additional titan-class weapon on the Warhounds as well. In the case of the Majoris with dual turbos, the Warhound is 22% less than it's equivelantly armed Ordinatus.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

All of which number crunching lets me know we should look at dropping a few points costs.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Mostly, I want a viable list without going into the titans, as any list should be. The flip side is that a Volcano Cannon-armed minoris already costs the same as a Shadowsword, and dropping it might make IG players jealous.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

OTOH it is easier to break, only DC2, has worse armour, is slower, and isn't fearless (Most Shadowswords are). So there's some leeway there.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Fair 'nuff. Wish I had appropriate models for this army. May have to dig through other stuff for proxies; my own [hand]scratchbuilding efforts are very slow, and turning out larger than I want them to...

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Skitarii list should work without titans ?

Ok, I think this need to be discussed before anything is actually decided concerning the list. Why a skitarii force would be fighting without titans ? Skitarii forces are integral parts of Titan Legio after all. I don't see why titans couldn't be as "core" as other formations in there.
Specially as Making Ordinatii very common is not very well supported by the fluff. There were only 4 Ordinatii (compared to something like 6 or 7 entire Titan Legions) for the whole Armageddon campaign.

This is a PDF list, so there's justification for making them a little more common.


Ordinatus Minoris are probably too small as assets to bother mentioning in the Armageddon force lists.
They don't mention how many Shadowswords the Imperial Guard deployed, either.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Yes of course, I had majoris in mind.

Still, As Ordinatii are supposed to be custom build machines for a specific campaign, I don't see how their presence in the list could be used to justify that Titans shouldn't be one of the main choices in a Skitarii force.

After all, while a Titan Legio participate in crusade and various AM operations, its duty is still first to defend their Forgeworld. To me, saying that having Titans should be quite secondary in a skitarii list is like making a Maccrage army and saying that Marines should only be superfluous allies in there.

I understand this is not the AMTL core "Titan Legio" List, but still, I am surprised enough by Spectral ghost blandly stating that Titans shouldn't be necessary in an skitarii force that I have to raise the question.

Of course I can see why there would be an 1/3 restriction on titans for gameplay purpose, of course the list should behave and work quite differently from the AMTL one, those are valid game design arguments and I am not criticizing this. But skitarii are supposed to be a support force for titans originally, they are even integrated in Titan Legio structure. As titans are meant to be the ultimate ground force, I don't see why the AM wouldn't use them if they are available. And I don't see many places where titans have better justifications for being available than on a Forgeworld.

Of course internal balance is fine, but if this discussion is going to state the direction the list development is taking, I think we should be clear about what it is intended to represent.
I would like it to be able to represent some of the engagements in the Titanicus book where a few Titans are involved, with large Skitarrii forces around them, and a few exotic AM WE (some engagements in the book are purely about Titans, with skitarii confined to a very secondary role. I am not thinking about those, those would fit with the AMTL list design).

It would of course be better if the list was able to portray such an army, and also a more mechanised infantry force with tank/WE/Titan support, or possibly a more entrenched skitarii force with Ordinatii/WE/titan support, and I though it was the goal.

If the goal is to get an infantry tank force with WE support, I'll just get the impression that I'm looking at a pimped up guard PDF army.

If there are a few roles in an epic AM list that only titans may fill, I think it's fine, even if it's not a specific "Titan only" or "mostly Titan" list. They don't have to be able to cover all roles (that would be for the AMTL list), but if there are a few things they do better than any other unit in the list, that's fine.
If it is felt that they should get a point-effectiveness equal in every role they can fulfil for the list to be internally balanced, well, I just disagree.


*edited for spelling shame and typo busting.