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War "Experts" |
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| Legion 4 |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA |
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? | primarch |
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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA |
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Israel's case is one of the first in which land won in a defensive war has not been fait accompli. If we operated by the same standards of WWII (three years earlier) then this dispute would have been solved years before as happened with the Germans, Russians, Poles and others.
I always find it hypocritical that the Israelis are often painted as aggressors rather than a society under siege (which could explain the wall, ehh?).
Not the Israel is "saintly" in their approach to the problem, but I will pretty much give them "thumbs up" in anything they do due to all the poo they have had to endure.
Even if you beleive in saints, you will have to admit that they are a very SMALL part of our world's people. Israelis are regular people like you or I and they make imperfect decisions like everyone else.
There is no way to combat terrorism without inconveniencing the Palestinian-Arab population with roadblocks and weapons searches.
In other words there is no perfect solution, but Israel strives to make the choices that minimize inconvenience to the Palestinian-Arabs and maximize efforts to preserve life from genocide-bombers. In other words, Israel strives to make the best ethical choice that they can with what options are available.
In the greater picture, I think we would all make the choice to inconvenience ourselves if it means saving lives.
In fact almost all of us already do. That's why we have things like seat belts, safety devices and speed limits.
It's hypocritical of many countries, including the US to ask for "restraint" under the ceaseless terror attacks, but I am ABSOLUTELY sure had it been any other country in the same situation, the Palestinians would be an extinct species by now.
I tend to agree. The US is willing to go on the offensive to fight back actively against terrorism, but they expect Israel to NOT do the same. It is hypocritical.
The UN does the same thing constantly, not recognizing Israel's right to defence (a sovereign right of all nations). It's very telling that the UN can't even define terrorism let alone take any meaningful action against it.
The UN is just a fancy chat club for petty dictatorships and the victors of WWII.
In Lebanon (where the UN allowed the PLO to run rampant commiting crimes against humanity and later let Syria brutally dominate the country), the Lebanese were fond of calling the UN, "United Nothings" as representative of the actions of the UN.
Israel has no fondness for the one-sided treatment they get from the UN. The UN practically invited the Egyptians to provoke war in 1967 despite the UN status as "peacekeepers" and a buffer between states. There are a number of dead Yugoslavians and Africans who don't think much of the UN as "peacekeepers" either.
Perhaps in one of the grossest displays of one-sided discrimination, the UN recently passed a resolution advocating the welfare of Palestinian-Arab children, but...
When a near identical resolution was proposed advocating the welfare of Israeli children (It replaced the Palestinian-Arab word with Israeli), it was not allowed to pass. Same resolution, same words, but no fair treatment.
It's easy to talk when it isn't your neighborhood getting bombed.
Amen.
As for anti-Semitism, this is not a new 20-21st century thing. It is unfortunately hundreds if not a couple of thousands of years old. It cycles through our history as most things do.
To say cycle would indicate that it would seem to come and go, but anti-Semitism has stayed active for years upon years. Even with multiculturalism and political correctness, it still remains a scourge.
My ancestors the Spaniards were not "kosher" in their treatment of them, that's why there aren't many in that country or Latin America by default.
What Spain really did was drive the Jews underground. there are still large communities of Jews in Spain (and Latin America), but they practice in secret as "Conversos" in their basements. A number of food products in modern Mexico and throughout Central and South America have Jewish origins. Many Jews escaped the Spanish inquisition to Central and South America.
I used to think that there were next to no Jews in Puerto Rico, but I have been constantly disproved of that thought at bilingual education conferences where I meet Puerto Rican Jews! I even met Jews while working on Cuba. The world is often more complex than we think.
The US, even with knowledge during WWII, consistently buried news of the Holocaust in the major papers of the time.
The supression of the Holocaust in the west was criminal. Most Western governments knew about the death camps for months if not years before they took any steps to deal with the problem.
Read Mila-18 by Leon Uris. While that book is historical fiction, there are plenty of nonfiction historical accounts of the mmany governments' neglect as well.
Modern countries like Austria have citizens that beleive the Holocaust was a Zionist fabrication.
Europe is experiencing a crazy resurgence of anti-Semitism right now. the only time it has ever been worse was before WWII and the Holocaust. That frightens me.
Gandalf had a thread at his forum calling the Israelis "whiners" over some German politics. It's a little more complicated than that, but not too much more complicated.
-------------------------
I apologize for getting heated about this, but I take threats to my life seriously. I'll try to cool down and stay away from this thread.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
_________________
6mm Sci-fi:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/
My Personal Blog:
http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/
| netepic |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:26 pm Posts: 7016 Location: Southfields, London, England |
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| Legion 4 |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA |
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| Jimbo |
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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:01 pm Posts: 3495 Location: Wessex |
the charter is renewed every 10 years and is due for renewal soon every news agency is biased, however just because you are not pro-israel does not make you anti-israel likewise been against Israeli policies, does not make you an anti-semite as for double standards there is one country in the Middle East which still a) ignores or violates UN resolutions (at least 65) b) has weapons of mass destruction (nuclear weapons, built with the support of the French and US, though has not used them unlike the US) c) refuses to approve the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty d) has been condemmed for its record on human rights I am not going to say which one, but lets just say it is not Iraq. As for US support of Israel, this is sadly not based on some moral argument, but is based on winning votes and popularity. As was US support for Irish terrorism, Nicaraguan terrorism, Iraq (when it was fighting Iran), Afghanistan freedom fighters (against the invited Soviet forces) - of course these were the same fighters that supported and trained those individuals to fly certain airliners into certain buildings. The British record is certainly something to be ashamed of: The British invented concentration camps (in the Boer War) You can argue that the British were responsible for ALL the problems in the Middle East. The British (and the League of Nations) were certainly responsible for the aftermath of WWI which led to WWII and was also responsible for the "invention" of countries like Yugoslavia and the problems it then had. All the race problems in America stem from the slavery trade which of course Britain made a lot of money from, Bristol was built on the profits of the slave trade. As for Iraq, well is it a good thing that Saddam is gone... To me that is not the issue, I was told by the government that Saddam posed a clear and present danger to the UK and had to be removed. From my viewpoint, the Iraq war has made the world a more dangerous place (look at the bombings in Istanbul). My final point, is that I know that the vast majority of the board will probably disagree with me, which is your right, but I also believe I have a right to state my point. This posting started off to show that sadly anti-semitism is alive and well in the UK (as are other forms of prejudice and discrimination) but there are a few points in this thread that I felt I wanted to talk about. We are not going to come to a compromise, we are going to have to agree to disagree. |
| Mojarn Piett |
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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am Posts: 5455 Location: Finland |
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| netepic |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:26 pm Posts: 7016 Location: Southfields, London, England |
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| Legion 4 |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA |
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| primarch |
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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA |
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| MaksimSmelchak |
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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA |
As Jimbo pointed out with links, Europe (and the UK) are experiencing a massive surge of anti-Semitism right now or... To be more specific, Jewish people in Europe and the UK are experiencing a massive rise in the number of discriminatory actions and even attacks against them because of their faith (anti-Semitism). Having relatives across Europe and in the UK, many of the attacks don't make the news and often becaue the news agency doesn't think they are newsworthy. That is the case with the BBS and the Manchester Guardian. They selectively feature a few pro-Jewish or anti-Arab features so they can claim to be impartial, but the overwhelming amount of material is both anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic. Jimbo has a point that those terms (anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic) don't all mean the same thing, but... The terms are also not mutually exclusive. In practice, the majority of the time, anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic all tend to go hand in hand. I am personally critical of many policies of the Israeli government, but I am critical in a constructive way and I also judge the actions of the Israeli government by the same standards I judge the US, UK or other governments. Mostly I criticise the Israeli government (when I do) in an effort to improve it. Much of the criticism levelled at Israel is clearly stated to be made in an effort to destroy the Israeli government, state, people, culture and nation. This is anti-Semitism. The Israelis have just as much right to sovreignty and the rights of a nation state (such as security, defence, etc.) as any other including the USA, UK and others. When Israeli sovreignty is questioned or challenged in a way that one would not level at other states then that is hypocrisy and, the great majority of the time, also anti-Semitism (a motivating factor). Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/ |
| MaksimSmelchak |
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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA |
Thanks. If nothing else, in the 70s and 80s the Arabs were committing hijackings and other acts of terrorism against the US and Europe, and for that reason we should support the Israelis. |
The great majority of hijackings (AKA skyjackings) have come from Arabic groups. This is a fact.
I don't know if this is reason enough to support Israel, but it's certainly enough reason to support a concerted campaign against terrorism since it affects people all over the world like you and me.
One of the problems is that most (if not all) terrorist groups don't respect human rights agreements, the UN or even common ideas of human decency. Such groups tend to speak in the language of force and that's all too often the only thing they understand.
Wonder why the Russians experience very little terroism compared to the USA or Europe?
They (as the USSR) always sent strong violent messages in reply. When Russians diplomats in Iran were kidnapped and threatened, the Russian government had commandoes kidnap the terrorists' families and sent the terrorists fingers from their family members as a reply. Within hours, the Russian diplomats were released.
We can't do that in the West as democracies.
But it has been much more effective than the negociation currently going on (which doesn't deal with the root problems, but instead deals with the symptoms).
I don't personally recommend this method of dealing with terrorists (it's clearly unethical), but it stands in my memory after failed and misguided diplomatic efforts like the crazy US-led "Roadmap" initiative.
It is clear that the Arab is a product of a failed and backward culture.
I think you go too far L-4 (and I say that as a friend). The Arab culture has failed its' people in many ways, but it has also done things the Western cultures have not. In many ways, by forcing Islam upon the peoples of the Middle East, they have created a culture with much more homogenaity than we have as Westerners. This can be looked at positively or negatively.
As far as backwardness goes, there is no question that the Arabs have failed their younger generations in terms of providing a basis in mathematics, science, and other academics that Western society values.
On the other hand, faith is much more accepted in the Middle East than in the Western world where secular thought and a subtle derision of faith are the norm.
I really think that the world could use a little more religion, which I see as a community-building qnd values-setting device.
The War on Terrorism should make them look within and not blame others for their failures. They turned their backs on fellow Moslems and Arabs when Saddam and the Taliban were committing massive human rights violations against their own people in their respective countries. But somehow the US is still to blame in the Moslem's eye.
It's hard to accept responsibility for one's own actions. Especially when you've never been taught to do so. The xenophobic elements of Arabic culture still have them pointing away from themselves. It doesn't help that the radical liberal elements of Western thought (such as the blame our woes entirely on the Imperialists and colonialists) have imported their thoughts to the region.
Of course then again, it wasn't until this president, that a US government could accept responsibility for supporting petty tyrants in the Middle East.
Churchhill (both Winston and his son) in the UK wrote intimately of having regretting taken so many actions blatantly discriminatory and not legitimately so to Israel.
It will be interesting to know when the majority of Arabic societies will begin to take responsibility for the quagmire that the Middle East (apart from Israel with the only democracy in the region) is in and by quagmire I mean a vicious cycle of petty tyrants who oppress their own peoples.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
_________________
6mm Sci-fi:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/
My Personal Blog:
http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/
| MaksimSmelchak |
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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA |
I agree that you have the right to state your point. I can't make a blanket statement that I agree or disagree with your points because I'll need to address them later in an educated fashion when I have a little more time to make a post and support it with facts. This posting started off to show that sadly anti-Semitism is alive and well in the UK (as are other forms of prejudice and discrimination) but there are a few points in this thread that I felt I wanted to talk about. |
I'm glad you brought up your points and I like hearing from you.
We are not going to come to a compromise, we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Agreed if it comes to it.
Personally as rational human beings, I think we can come to a compromise, but, then again, I tend to be an optimist. I want to have faith in human beings.
Shalom and best regards,
Maksim-Smelchak.
_________________
6mm Sci-fi:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/
My Personal Blog:
http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/
| Legion 4 |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA |
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| MaksimSmelchak |
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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA |
Thanks for the compliment. I agree the Russian methods are extreme, in some cases, but usually effective. We saw how many casualties were suffered by the hostages in the theater, that Moslem fanatics took over a few years ago. I knew the Russians were willing to do that regardless of the friendly losses. |
I have a close friend in Moscow and we spoke about that theater hostage crisis at the time it happened. Pretty scary stuff.
The Russians have much different look on humanism and ethics than we do. They often have an easy time justifying actions that "Western" thinkers would consider brutal. Then again, most Western societies haven't endured what the Russians have. The Russians actedas a buffer state for Europe when the Asian hordes came rolling across the continent. The Russian (or really Slavic) states (really petty bickering princedoms) absorbed casualties and force (being almost destroyed many times and having large perecentages of the population, man, woman and child destroyed many times as well...) that most countries in the West can't imagine.
Having studied it, I can understand why the Russian mindset is as it is.
I understand your aversion to my saying that they are a failed culture. I guess it comes from my frustration of the world having to deal with these lunatics for decades.
Well, you're not the only one who has been dealing with it... for decades.
I very carefully examine my actions to watch myself that I judge the Arabs by the same standards that I judge the Israelis. It's a hard thing to do. As mentioned by Mojarn, it's hardest to get a broad view when you're involved in an issue.
In many cases their acts only put them in a worse situation and only angers us more. ?
And that's what they say about the USA and other Western powers... ?
Their methods are ineffective and don't further their cause, only kills more innocents. Their killing of civilians is on purpose, not by accident, as you well know. ? ? ?
I tend to agree.
Why we (meaning the majority of the mainstream media) can't call the intentional killing of civilians by genocide-bombers and others a crime against humanity (or even terrorism) is beyond me. A number of media outlets persist in calling such obvious (and declared) murder of innocent civilian noncombatants a "freedom movement by militants" is just baffling. I wish those same media outlets would ACTUALLY read what those declared groups have said and written for their own consumption (rather than what their PR people announce to the media people).
The Arab has yet to prove to me as group, that they have moved into the 20th century, let alone the 21st.
I don't know how to respond to this.
Where are the moderate Arabs that many experts say we need to work with?
They're mostly one of two things:
- DEAD: Most moderate opposing voices get murdered by the radical violent terrorists. This has been the case with the Palestinian-Arabs. There are a number of reports that document "extrajudicial murders" that go on in the areas of the PA (Palestinian Authority). They have no court system, system of justice or other effective way of adjudicating disputes other than with violence and murder.
- COWED and SCARED: Many of the other "voices of moderation" are scared by murder and threats. A good deal of such moderates emmigrate to escape persecution. Unfortunately the great majority of the Middle East (excluding Israel for the most part) has no tradition of tolerance of dissident (or at least differing) thought. "Strong-arm" leadership by powerful tyrants is the norm.
You rarely if ever, even see American/Western Moslems speak out. However, many still make anti-Israeli comments.
It's easier to go along with the norm. It tends to be one of the few rallying points that American/Western Muslims have that tyrannical Arab Muslim governments will support.
Plus many Liberal Westerners only fuel the Moslem hatred for the West. I guess their sons (now even daughters) are not becoming casualties. And as you said the cycle goes on...
Actions speak louder than words.
I'd really like to see some of the protesters be in a position where they had to make a hard choice of defending their beleifs with actions rather than words.
The majority of the Western democracies wouldn't exist if they didn't have men (and women) who defend their governments with actions rather than words (and hot air).
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.