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The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants

 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:07 pm 
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Morgan Vening wrote:
Just an off the wall suggestion for the huge War Engines. Anything Reaver and below should be automatically excluded. And some above probably could as well.

Domineer/Unnerve/Intimidate (sure someone can think of a more apt name)
Each D/U/I in the army allows a player to skip initiatve (nominate no formation, and declare no action) once per turn.

It can probably be worded better, and have a restriction (not when broken), or penalty (like the Avatar rule if killed). I don't know. But it helps smooth out the activation count.

Morgan Vening


I love you. Now, wait, the word is not enough, I need a new one I... I Lurve you. yes, I lurve you*.

I've been thinking about the activation system for a long time, since I think it's probably the best one around and I love it, but it DOES create this bug with army selections, where small formations are disproportionately favored by the system (specially considering Epic is not skirmish scale, and should allow you to field company level stuff in a fair way). It also makes the lists more blend than they should; a very high concentration of units in lists are in the 250-350 Pts bracket, and all large units are very hard to balance and end-up being scenario stuff. Most upgrade aren't worth taking, etc...

I didn't have any satisfying proposal to make for solving this. Activation cap isn't pleasant, and does not work very well in a tournament context, notably. But I think that if any formation above a certain point cost level was to be considered "Intimidating" (or whatever the word we might end up using in the end), it might work nicely. It would be cool if large infantry/tank formations (IG arty or tank companies for example) could benefit from this too.

I'd be glad to see all large formations and war engines be more viable, and it would also give more flexibility in the development of new lists.


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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Is this really such a bad list?

REGIMENTAL HQ - 550
Supreme Commander, 12 Infantry, 7 Chimera
+Hydra

INFANTRY COMPANY - 300
Commander, 12 Infantry
+Hydra

INFANTRY COMPANY - 300
Commander, 12 Infantry
+Hydra

ARTILLERY BATTERY (BOMBARD) - 250
3 Bombards

FLAK BATTERY - 150
3 Hydra

SENTINEL SQUADRON - 100
4 Sentinels

SENTINEL SQUADRON - 100
4 Sentinels

SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON - 200
Baneblade

SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON - 200
Baneblade

WARLORD CLASS TITAN - 850

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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:12 pm 
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Seconded! Sounds like a good call to me.

Feel free to go check out the thread I linked to, it has a set of new Titan configurations in it that Nealhunt has given tentative support to seeing tested.


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Is this really such a bad list?

I would shoot your Chimeras, killing 1 or 2, and then you're 95% speed 15cm... you'll have real trouble gaining any objectives.

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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:18 pm 
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Man of kent wrote:
(...)
An intresting idea...but wouldn't that make warlocks and especially great/gargants a whole lot more popular?

Their cost could be upped to reflect it.

Morgan Vening wrote:
That's why I said "and some above" in the first bit. I see it as a boost for those titans that suck, not just for all titans. Off the top of my head, Warlord, Imperator, Banelord (maybe), the Necron thingies. But stuff like the Warlock and Great Gargant could probably skip it. The points drop and fixes to the Manta would probably exclude that, too.


As I said, I think such a rule could fix a problem that is IMHO systemic in a game using activations.

There are some super units in the game, Titans and large war engines, and large formations with lots of power who suffer because of the activation system (tank Coy, Arty Coy...). If such formations were to get something to make em better activation wise, that would be a much better fix than point cost decreases. Point cost decreases on large stuff tend to "compress" all costs in a small range around 300Pts.
Cheap stuff get their priced upped because they give too much of an activation boost, large stuff get point decrease because they are activation sinks. While small formations can be balanced by being fragile, the system is inherently flawed when it come to large ones.

A rule along the line proposed by Morgan would provide an elegant solution, specially if the point cost level (or the formations to which it would specifically applied if we choose that route) is set so that you could still get more activations by going pop corn with your list, but not with so much of a sink if you get a company or a Warengine.


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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:40 pm 
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Morgan Vening wrote:
Just an off the wall suggestion for the huge War Engines. Anything Reaver and below should be automatically excluded. And some above probably could as well.

Domineer/Unnerve/Intimidate (sure someone can think of a more apt name)
Each D/U/I in the army allows a player to skip initiatve (nominate no formation, and declare no action) once per turn.

It can probably be worded better, and have a restriction (not when broken), or penalty (like the Avatar rule if killed). I don't know. But it helps smooth out the activation count.

Morgan Vening


an interesting suggestion.

Warhound (and their like) activations are two part. Yes they give you an extra activation so that you can delay, useful in the first turn and, because they are good survivors useful in the third turn. But also they are grab/contest objectives. A null activation can't.

So it's better, but still not as good as two warhounds.


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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:51 pm 
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I like the work you've done for titan configurations or 'roles' E&C. I still think the warlord is too pricey for space marines in the GT scenario - probably for guard too - whichever configuration you take.


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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:25 pm 
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Would the Warlord bemore generalist/useful if the Volcano Cannon and/or Galting Blaster would be switched for one/two Quake Cannon/s? It seems that the major benefit of the Great Gargant is it's MW Barrages.

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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:07 am 
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I think part of the reason the Warlock and Great Gargant are good is that they're good at supporting assaults with their firefight, The Warlock especially with all it's +FF weapons and extra speed to get in position in time.

Maybe giving some imperial weapons some assault bonuses would help matters, like maybe giving the Gattling Blaster +2FF as well as it;s normal stats. I think there was talk of moving the Phantom/Warlock's +ff from the fist to the titan pulsar to make it less of an automatic choice as well.


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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:43 am 
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actually originally, the Added FF to the fist was to make it useful.

The pulsar were considered vastly superior originally. Then the fist got massive boost, and later the puslar was slightly nerfed down.


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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:12 pm 
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Athmospheric wrote:
I've been thinking about the activation system for a long time, since I think it's probably the best one around and I love it, but it DOES create this bug with army selections, where small formations are disproportionately favored by the system (specially considering Epic is not skirmish scale, and should allow you to field company level stuff in a fair way). It also makes the lists more blend than they should; a very high concentration of units in lists are in the 250-350 Pts bracket, and all large units are very hard to balance and end-up being scenario stuff. Most upgrade aren't worth taking, etc...

I didn't have any satisfying proposal to make for solving this. Activation cap isn't pleasant, and does not work very well in a tournament context, notably. But I think that if any formation above a certain point cost level was to be considered "Intimidating" (or whatever the word we might end up using in the end), it might work nicely. It would be cool if large infantry/tank formations (IG arty or tank companies for example) could benefit from this too.


The way the old Confrontation rules did it was to count up the activations on each side at the start of each turn, and the difference is given to the player with the least as activation passes. So, say you've got 8 activations to their 10, you get 2 chances to decline to activate this turn.

There's going to be some ramifications that I'm not seeing, but that would be an elegant way to redress the balance of activation numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:17 pm 
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PitFiend wrote:
The way the old Confrontation rules did it was to count up the activations on each side at the start of each turn, and the difference is given to the player with the least as activation passes. So, say you've got 8 activations to their 10, you get 2 chances to decline to activate this turn.

There's going to be some ramifications that I'm not seeing, but that would be an elegant way to redress the balance of activation numbers.


there'd have to be some balance mechanism in place to prevent the situation swinging too far the other way, maybe max of one decline per 1k points played or something.


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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:37 pm 
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How would you cover broken formations and ones getting broken/wiped out during turn?


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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Is it really a good idea to change the core mechanics of the game to make one unit a little bit better? Really?


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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:53 pm 
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Mephiston wrote:
Is it really a good idea to change the core mechanics of the game to make one unit a little bit better? Really?

QFT

I'm sure just opening up a some extra weapons configurations will allow Warlord Titans to be of more utility.

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 Post subject: Re: The Warlord Titan - why must it be pants
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Not just one unit. I think the activation mechanisms as more consequences that just making the warlord less interesting. Indeed, if it is only the warlord we are trying to fix, I think the configuration variant E&C mentioned could prove sufficient.

Anyway, the more I get back into the rule side of things, the more I think it's only to be expected that a game that is, after all, 6 years old may need an update of some of its mechanism if they prove somewhat unsatisfactory.
Yes, it would affect the lists. Yes, it would require some rebalancing. Still, if we end up with a better game, I think it is something to consider.


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