What both Mosc and Atmos said!

So we should go with the first draft and accept this - even if it may be flawed?

I would prefer a conscious effort to test the ideas rather than to ignore them 'off the bat'.

Just because there are those who developed the lists and the rules advising us that they have existed for ages, does not mean they got it right. I think in these areas, people need to be more open for debate and testing rather than dismissing stuff all the time.

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The statement you gentlemen are making seems predicated on the assumption that the Marine list has been balanced since its inception. This is not the case, as the lowly Vindicator proves single-handedly.

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Actually, if the list has existed for ages, been played for ages, and developed by people far wiser than you and I put together does mean that they probably got it right. You are talking about an army list that -despite other issues- has had comparatively few complaints about the Thunderhawk. And they are good reasons to dismiss this idea as the musings of a relatively new player trying to reinvent the wheel into an oval.

Your proposal is much the same as a lot of other proposals lately - a solution in search of a problem. How many people are complaining about spamming Thunderhawks? How frequently has it been done? Have we seen more than one batrep? A 1/3 restriction would still mean up to 5 T-Hawks in a list! This is a big problem with the SMs? Really?

Feel free to test it, talk about it, and propose changes. It's a free web (for now anyway). But just because somebody disagrees with you doesn't mean they are being closed minded. I particularly think this is a terrible idea based on experience and reason, which saves time. Or as my papa always said, "You won't live long enough to make all of your own mistakes."



And yet the list seems to win about 50% of time nonetheless. Odd.

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Again, Incorrect.

More likley that there are problems that can be solved through different ways of thinking. The Thunderhawk to War Engines would in part help fix the Warhound and Thunderbolt allotments - so one needs to look beyond the unit being discussed.

It is complacency that is the root of most of the issues with Epic. Until that changes, well you will continue to have your flaws in the game.



Oh my....

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there is an old anecdote that i am fond of

a little girl is being taught the family recipe for meatloaf, and is surprised to see her mother chop off the ends and throw them away. it seems like it must be a waste of food, so she asks.
"Mum, why do you chop the ends off the meatloaf?"
her mother looks down and replies "It's part of the recipe that my mother taught me, we've always chopped the ends off when we cook meatloaf" and continues with the lesson
the little girl, however, is not satisfied with this answer, so when she next goes to see her grandmother, she again askes.
"Grandma, why do we cut off the ends of the meatloaf?"
Grandma alsoo replies that it was the recipe her mother had taught her, and that it had always been that way.
still not satisfied, the little girl calls her great grandmother on the phone, and asks "Great Grandma, why do we chop off the end of our meatloaf?"
the old lady replies "because otherwise it didnt fit on my tray"

the moral to the story is that just because it's been done one way for ages and ages doesnt mean it isnt stupid, and sometimes it takes a fresh set of eyes to point this out.

yes, the marine list wins a fair portion of its games. but it does so almost solely through a single build and set of units, to the exclusion of several others.

saying "marines are fine" because thunderhawk air assaults are fine is a bad idea. by moving the thunderhawks away from the "everyday" area and into the "restricted" area, you are not limiting thunderhawks (as it has been said, noone is taking just thunderhawks) but rather, you are forcing players to choose between thunderhawks and warhounds and thunderbolts, instead of allowing everything. Thunderhawks should be a Sometimes Food...

likewise, by costing units in such a way as they're balanced against the cheap thunderhawks, you are putting a surcharge on any non-thunderhawk based build (and how many marine lists win reliably without thunderhawks these days? not many by the looks of it)

you dont charge everyone in the city a toll to use the tollbridge, because they might drive across it. you charge the people a toll when they do drive across it. so why charge marines that are not in a thunderhawk a fee, because they might get in a thunderhawk later, when you can charge the thunderhawk the fee, and be assured it will be balanced.

but back on the "why are thunderhawks not in the "Restricted" (allies) section" part of the thread. why are space marines the only list that still allow aircraft as a core formation? every other list in the game i have been able to find have their aircraft in the limited access section.

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So would it be bad for the Thunderhawk or would it do nothing? You seem unsure.



It began to win after changes were made to it. Before those changes, it was widely considered sub-par. Even today, many options are considered non-competitive and rarely, if ever, are taken.

So...thank you for walking into my point?

I think Mr. Grin sums up my own thoughts fairly well.

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Yes. Because ATSKNF is currently what it was in the original print run of the rulebook.

</sarcasm>

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Hena

As the Marine AC, do you have an opinion on any of the above?

Has anything piqued your interest?

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Both the events I've won I've used 2 warhounds, 2 thawks and 1 tbolts - I think Yme-locs had the same, as did dptdexys (2nd) at FSA. I had a spaceship as well though.

At britcon (4k) TRC -1st had 3 warhounds 2 tbolts 1 LC 1 thawk I had (2nd) 2 thawks 3 warhounds tbolts spaceship

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I'm firing up my query browser right now

Hah, new idea: Every time someone wins a tournament with an army list, that army list is nerfed.

Result: Codex creep... backwards!

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