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Imperial Fists Development
Angel_of_Caliban
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:10 am 
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frogbear wrote:
I also have an idea to have a formation of 4 tacticals with two vehicles (whether Land Raiders or Predators) to promote the mud-marine look on a table top.

Something like 4 Tacticals (200 - 225) + 2xLand Raiders or 2xPreadators (+150 or +125 respectively).
So the formation would cost between 325 and 375 points.
This appears to be a good balance promoting the use of the vehicles in the list.

Only issue I can see is the standard Tactical formation (250) having to purchase transports (+150 or +175). Maybe they are too similar?

Then again, base Tacticals are still one of the cheaper options whos numbers and ATSKNF will ensure they hold objectives... with the use of cheap fortifications (being reviewed now - ideas to come), and the ability to garrison, their move up a table should not be such a burden.

Still pondering....

How would they garrison with 2x Land Raiders or 2x Predators?

Losing LR and Pred formation is fine in a Defend list but maybe not in Attack list. If you decided to split list I would focus on Amoured Ground Assault with Land Raider Variants and defend with different size Inf formations and fortifications and Sentry and Artillery units.


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Simulated Knave
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:14 am 
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Preds don't make much sense attached to Infantry, IMO. As light tanks, all that's going to do is make them more vulnerable by tying them down.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:25 am 
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Quote:
How would they garrison with 2x Land Raiders or 2x Predators?


Argh! My quotes/meanings are being taken out of context. The garrison note was referring to the standard 250 point tactical Marines and the difference to them over the 4 Tacticals + vehicles. They are a cheaper option, that's all. Trying to decide if having both types of tacticals in a list is viable from an difference point of view.

Quote:
Losing LR and Pred formation is fine in a Defend list but maybe not in Attack list. If you decided to split list I would focus on Amoured Ground Assault with Land Raider Variants and defend with different size Inf formations and fortifications and Sentry and Artillery units.


Pricing is always going to be prohibative. Also Scions of Iron already provide for an armoured Marine attack force. I will keep playing with the list :)

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Last edited by frogbear on Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:26 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Preds don't make much sense attached to Infantry, IMO. As light tanks, all that's going to do is make them more vulnerable by tying them down.


Yeah, that was my desperate attempt at making them useful :D I am sure the brain will tick over with further ideas.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:39 am 
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I have been playing around with some ideas to promote INF within the list more. After a fair bit of brainstorming and throwing ideas off Morgan, I was wondering what people thought of these possible inclusions:

[formation name here]: Four Tactical Marine units + four Razorbacks - 250 points Notes: May replace Razorbacks with fortifications for free

Veterans:: Six Tactical Marine units - 250 points. Upgrades: May replace two units with either 2xLandraiders (+75), 2x Predators(+50), 2xVindicators(+25) or 2xDevastators(+25)
- upgrades will also include Commander and Supreme Commander
Notes: Veterans may garrison with one extra vehicle


Questions:
Other than gaining your feedback on thoughts on inclusion of the above, do any of the two ideas above break away from codex chapter formations or are they acceptable in this respect?

My thought for the Veterans and their special rule (shock/horror) was that it promotes these forces garrisoning forward and making use of fortifications (especially the gun emplacements). With the extra vehicle option, it makes it a viable tactic while keeping the points down by keeping it as a 6 unit formation. Afterall, this army will need its activation count if it is to remain competitive.

Also, has anyone got a good name for the formation with the Razorbacks/Fortifications?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:18 am 
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Quote:
Four Tactical Marine units

Nope.
Quote:
Veterans

Nope.

Please don't do either of these.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Please don't do either of these.


Reasons why?

It is really hard to do a list when ideas get shot down with no reason given.

I will point out that the Scions have 4 marine formations and that is being touted to being approved. Why would the idea not also work here?

Also, what is wrong with the Veterans idea?

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Steve54
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:40 pm 
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Veterans have always been included in the general marine formations as not different enough to warrant a different unit stat, if you include them it restarts all the bleating about sternguard, vanguard, tyranid hunters etc etc etc

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zombocom
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Definite no to veterans, for the reason Steve54 describes.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Quote:
Reasons why?


Because...

Quote:
I will point out that the Scions have 4 marine formations...


...Scions are a non-Codex Chapter. :-)

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
Veterans have always been included in the general marine formations as not different enough to warrant a different unit stat, if you include them it restarts all the bleating about sternguard, vanguard, tyranid hunters etc etc etc


Well they could be named differently however I would point out that there are no stat differences.

All that changes from a Tactical formation is different upgrade choice and the ability to garrison 1 extra vehicle.

If there are no stat changes, how does it open up the debate again?

If it is still not agreeable that the word 'veteran' be used, then would the formation work under any other name?

Side Note: Just because an idea such as veterans was tackled in the past, I fail to see how, if no stat changes are being proposed, why an upgrade choice or small rule that changes them from Tactical Marines is an issue. I would really be interested in any justification to shut such an idea down so quickly.

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Last edited by frogbear on Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
...Scions are a non-Codex Chapter. :-)


I can accept this to an extent. Thank you

Could the idea for the Veterans not work under any other name?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Quote:
Could the idea for the Veterans not work under any other name?

I don't see the need for it.

This is supposed to be a Marine Siege list, not a tank list.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:55 pm 
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Is it necessary though?

I don't think activation count will be a problem for the army as there are plenty of 200/225 pt formations, looking at devastators they would be my first choice in the list with 2 units garrisonned in fortifications on OW so I don't really think any extra incentive to use garrissons/bunkers etc is needed.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:02 pm 
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That was the reason for the ideas however.

I am attempting to make INF formations more useful in the list as I am concerned that all the formations discussed are anything but Imperial Fist INF formations.

Currently we have Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Dreadnoughts, Armour, Tarantulas, Helois, and Thunderfire formations.

I was hoping to make Imperial Fist INF viable throughout the list by offering these options, as current formations with upgrades becomes quite expensive.

If you do not think that the purchase of INF formations will be an issue, then I guess my concerns are appeased. I would hate this list to lose focus however from the INF as that is how I see the Imperial Fists, INF supported with Armour and Support rather than the other way around.

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