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Imperial Fists Development

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
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If they can get the activations to 8 or 9

Then they'll lose.

A Marine army needs 10-11 activations, especially if it's a ground-pounding army.


Remember I am not counting the tarantulas who (at this point) are considerred to be on Overwatch from the start of the turn. In effect, they are still holding/contesting objectives and will shoot anything to come within range that the player wants.

The 8 or 9 activations was for actual activations based on initiative. Do you still think that will be the case?

Edit - Ninja'd by BlackLegion :P

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:30 pm 
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Can we assume for now that the tarantulas are a normal formation? Breaking something that enshrined in the epic ruleset shouldn't be done unless there's no other option and after significant playtesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:43 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Can we assume for now that the tarantulas are a normal formation? Breaking something that enshrined in the epic ruleset shouldn't be done unless there's no other option and after significant playtesting.


It's not an issue. It is a development idea and I think it has alot of merit. It is a formation that goes on Overwatch every turn and stays on Overwatch. No breaking of any rules actually and fits their role - other seem to think so as well.

As for "enshrined in the epic ruleset" - let's get serious shall we? There are lists that are breaking these rules all the time - auto Assault being one that is high on my sh** list due to the slack I got for it. There are others but this is not the forum for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:47 pm 
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The idea that all formations activate is a big one, and I just don't see why tarantulas have to break that.

In most games they will be garrisoned on overwatch, and will stay on overwatch until someone comes near. After they shoot, the next turn they'll likely be put back on overwatch.

Really the rule isn't needed, and serves to complicate things, as well as making them a much less competitive choice due to the lost activation.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:19 pm 
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1. It has no need for walker
2. It is worth 75 points - really how could you price such an awesome unit any less when dealing with 25 point margins? The only way is to buy them in groups of 2 then but I am yet to see how they are not 75 points at an INF level - they play a different role to Hunters. If they were to get a small boost, I would agree on the AR4+ save due to the tech marine...


I'm fine with that. Two 60cm Disrupt and/or IC shots is worth 75.

Quote:
I would also really like to get away from the Disrupt OR Ignore Cover option. I would rather it be one or the other. At present there appears to be more viability for Disrupt than Ignore Cover. Otherwise give it both?


Why? The IG Basilisk wanders about with two fire modes, and nobody worries overmuch. Disrupt is definitely a more unique addition to the army, but it also would be a weaker shot.

One option is to have Thunderfire [Shell Type X] and Thunderfire [Shell Type Y]. But I'm not sure that's a great idea.

OH! Castellan Whirlwinds! They might be good in here.

EDIT:

And the key to happiness with Tarantulas - stop thinking about them as a formation. Start thinking about them as terrain that shoots things.

EDIT 2:

Oh, since the list seems to be definitely moving in a defensive direction, I recommend the elimination of the Battle Barge. Drop Pods + Defensive positions doesn't seem quite right, y'know?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:28 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
In most games they will be garrisoned on overwatch, and will stay on overwatch until someone comes near. After they shoot, the next turn they'll likely be put back on overwatch.


Fair enough. The rule isn't written in the list at present so no changes.

The main issue will be whether they should be subject to BM negative for the initiative check... it's not like they have morale to worry about.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Oh, since the list seems to be definitely moving in a defensive direction, I recommend the elimination of the Battle Barge. Drop Pods + Defensive positions doesn't seem quite right, y'know?


Not just yet. I will cut things down (if required) once the options for additions settles down. At present, whenever the list goes up, all these ideas for extra formations pop up! :D

It is conceivable that the force (for the supplement) still has a Battle Barge in orbit that is able to send drop reinforcements while tackling the Iron Warriors in space. So there is a reason for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:44 pm 
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Why? The IG Basilisk wanders about with two fire modes, and nobody worries overmuch. Disrupt is definitely a more unique addition to the army, but it also would be a weaker shot.

This makes sense to me. Having the OR choice, and infantry status, helps make the Thunderfire worth those 75 points. Without some buffs from your current stats it's not worth taking, you'd just take a Hunter instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:46 pm 
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There is another option...

Anyone have a problem with the Tarantula Sentry guns being Disposable?

I am going to go for broke here and also suggest this: Notes: Cannot be suppressed

This does not apply to the Hyperios battery

This fixes all the issues I have with these guys. Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:47 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
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Why? The IG Basilisk wanders about with two fire modes, and nobody worries overmuch. Disrupt is definitely a more unique addition to the army, but it also would be a weaker shot.

This makes sense to me. Having the OR choice, and infantry status, helps make the Thunderfire worth those 75 points. Without some buffs from your current stats it's not worth taking, you'd just take a Hunter instead.


I am happy to move on and accept this.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:56 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
There is another option...

Anyone have a problem with the Tarantula Sentry guns being Disposable?

I am going to go for broke here and also suggest this: Notes: Cannot be suppressed

This does not apply to the Hyperios battery

This fixes all the issues I have with these guys. Thoughts?

Don't see the need without a few playtests showing them to be useless and in need of a buff.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:07 pm 
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Really - first try them as normal activation.

And actually there was a load of testing done with tarantulas a short while after EpicA was released. Was as a cheap activation for Titans. Various options considered including practically all of the above. In the end it was just simplist to make them a cheap activation and factor that into the considerations. The bm thing was tried only to be dropped in favour of simply explaining it as the local network being disrupted and weight of fire overloading their sensors. Might still be alive on this board or the older cached epic development board.

Just make them worth being a 150 point unit and go from there. I think having 1 twin las and 1 twin hve bolter shot a stand does that with sufficient numbers. You pay for the firepower, you pay for the activation, you move on! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:34 pm 
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I'd just like to reiterate that Whirlwind Castellans would be good in this list. Bolter shot blast template with Ignore Cover, for those who don't know.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:39 pm 
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3 IC whirlwinds for 250 would be good.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:45 pm 
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I'm not sure a S4 AP5 blast is worth 1BP, though...

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