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Imperial Fists Development

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:27 pm 
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EpicBattleBaggz wrote:
Wow! This thing just got heated...

As to move the conversation along, I propose this, using some of E/C's original proposition on Tarantulas, How about.....

Name: Tarantula Sentry Gun
Type: INF
Speed: 0cm
Armour: 6+
FF: 6+ (5+)
CC: None

Weapons:
- Multi Melta - 15cm, MW5+ and Small Arms, Macro Weapon
OR
- Twin Lascannon 45cm, AT4+
OR
- Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm, AP4+ (Changes FF rating to 5+)
Notes: A Tarantula Sentry Gun may be armed with one of the weapons listed above.
Formation of 6 for 150 points.

Transportation: Drop pod for...50pts per 3 stands
OR
Rhino transport for 25pts per 3 stands...
Rapid Redeployment - Tarantula Sentry Guns are subjected to slow firing if redeployed



Why would Marines put Tarantulas in Drop Pods when they could just use Deathstorm Drop Pods (Which put out far more damage) ?

Likewise, why are Rhino drivers lugging Tarantulas about in the middle of a battle?

This isn't pre-battle setup you're talking about, you're suggesting Marines drag Tarantulas into Rhinos, drive up to within range of the enemy, then drag out, calibrate and set up a Tarantula battery, so that the Tarantulas can fire on the enemy.

That is, essentially, the exact thing that Imperial Armour says Marines don't do.


Other than those two points I think your stats are fine. Could have CC6+ if people feel strongly about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:17 pm 
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They would clearly scatter them from thundrhawks!


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:19 pm 
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Pre-battle, maybe.

But during a battle, unlike Guardsmen, Marines have far more mobile big weapons they can bring to bear. Tarantulas are just static sentry guns to Marines, nothing more.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:53 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:

Why would Marines put Tarantulas in Drop Pods when they could just use Deathstorm Drop Pods (Which put out far more damage)?


I thought about that after I hit the submit button, but then I don't know the stats to the Deathstorm Drop Pods off hand.

Quote:
Likewise, why are Rhino drivers lugging Tarantulas about in the middle of a battle?

This isn't pre-battle setup you're talking about, you're suggesting Marines drag Tarantulas into Rhinos, drive up to within range of the enemy, then drag out, calibrate and set up a Tarantula battery, so that the Tarantulas can fire on the enemy.

That is, essentially, the exact thing that Imperial Armour says Marines don't do.

Well I was only making the suggestion because...
1) I wanted the thread to continue with ideas and not the continuing spewing forth of semantics about who has the valid argument.
2) There were suggestions of mounting them in Rhinos...I was just throwing that out there...just trying to be creative...

I think everyone needs a beer. :P

Quote:
Other than those two points I think your stats are fine. Could have CC6+ if people feel strongly about it.


Thanks!

So I guess the next question is, how do we deploy the Tarantulas?
Drop em? Garrison? Move em?


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:54 pm 
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The_Real_Chris wrote:
They would clearly scatter them from thundrhawks!


That's what I think. Just like popcorn!


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:03 pm 
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EpicBattleBaggz wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:

Why would Marines put Tarantulas in Drop Pods when they could just use Deathstorm Drop Pods (Which put out far more damage)?


I thought about that after I hit the submit button, but then I don't know the stats to the Deathstorm Drop Pods off hand.

I don't know the stats either, but just looking at them tells me they're a better option for Marines than Drop Podding Tarantula Sentry Guns...

Image
A single Twin Lascannon, or five massive missile launchers?

Image

A single Twin Heavy Bolter, or five Assault Cannons?
No contest. ;D

Quote:
So I guess the next question is, how do we deploy the Tarantulas?
Drop em? Garrison? Move em?

They're sentry guns, so they should be standing sentry at the start of the game.

Garrison, or normal deployment.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:39 pm 
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Deathwind Drop Pods have only 12" on their weapons. They have only BallisticSkill of 2 (Marines have BS4) and is armed with Missile Launchers (Frag only) OR Assault Cannons.
After landing it shoots at ANY unit within range (friend AND foe alike) D3 weapons each. Note that a Assault Cannon has 4 shots. So if you score eg a 3 you can use 12 Asaault Cannon shots (if the Drop Pod is armed with them) at the targeted unit.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:52 pm 
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Quote:
A single Twin Heavy Bolter, or five Assault Cannons?
No contest. ;D


Sweet man!

The Adeptus Mechanicus should see if they could pack a Plasma Destructor in one of those. Nothing screams, "SUPRISE!" like a Titan weapon. ;D


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:05 pm 
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*Frogbear wakes up and turns on his PC to read Taccoms*

:o

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:11 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
*Frogbear wakes up and turns on his PC to read Taccoms*

:o

Might be better to just turn it off and walk away...a bit heated this morning, I've been reading but to afraid to hop in and debate. The whole Tarantula thing is well....a warm topic ::)

But I have to agree with Simulated Knave with most of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:23 pm 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
frogbear wrote:
*Frogbear wakes up and turns on his PC to read Taccoms*

:o

Might be better to just turn it off and walk away...a bit heated this morning, I've been reading but to afraid to hop in and debate. The whole Tarantula thing is well....a warm topic ::)


Naaaa! We're talking about Tarantulas falling from the sky like popcorn. It's all good!


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:24 pm 
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E&C:
Quote:
It doesn't say their "slow mobililty" restricts their use in a fluid battle, it says their "lack of mobility" restricts their use in a fluid battle.


Slow mobility is bad grammar. Lack of mobility denotes, well, a lack of mobility. It does not mean that their mobility is nonexistent, only that there is a lack of it.

People in wheelchairs lack mobility. This does not mean they don't have any, only that there is a relative, well, lack of it.

Quote:
That means that they have to wait for targets to come to them, not that Marines will be pick them up and carry them slowly towards the enemy so that they can partake in limited mobile warfare.


Alternately, it means that moving them around would be a pain in the ass to be avoided if possible.

Quote:
Just because the sentence includes the words "fluid battle", that in no way implies that the Tarantulas are partaking in any part of the "fluidity".


Actually, it rather does. It restricts their use in a fluid battle. They still take part in battles which are fluid - there are just limited things which can be done with them. If you're in a fluid battle, you're partaking in the fluidity by definition. Otherwise you wouldn't be in the battle any more.

Quote:
I just checked with a couple of models sitting on my shelf, and the central part of the Tarantula is pretty much the same size as a Sentinel's cab. Much bigger than an infantryman.


Er...from what I recollect of Sentinel cabs, that's a relative statement if I ever heard one. Of course, I don't have a current Sentinel around to judge.

In any case, Thudd Guns and Eldar HWPs are both pretty big relative to Sentinels, and they get to be Infantry. Hell, the first picture of the Tarantula in IA 1 has it making better use of cover than the Guardsman next to it.

Quote:
It's some kind of direct-fire gun cannon, not artillery. Could easily be infantry though.


Crew-serviced weapons which are big enough to have a vehicle statline are called artillery in 40K (to be fair, it's a lot simpler than saying "big crew-serviced weapons"). The Thunderfire Cannon is one of these. Eldar Weapons Platforms are artillery, too, for the purposes of the vehicle rules. And all artillery pieces in 40K are infantry in Epic.

Quote:
Likewise, why are Rhino drivers lugging Tarantulas about in the middle of a battle?


Because the Tarantulas would be more useful elsewhere than where they currently are?

Quote:
This isn't pre-battle setup you're talking about, you're suggesting Marines drag Tarantulas into Rhinos, drive up to within range of the enemy, then drag out, calibrate and set up a Tarantula battery, so that the Tarantulas can fire on the enemy.


As opposed to letting the Tarantulas sit behind the line of battle doing nothing when they could be moved closer to the line of battle where they could do more good?

Marines do what Marines need to do to win. And I can think of several circumstances where moving Tarantulas would be a good idea. Especially in siege warfare - what if you capture enemy trenches and want to hold them? Do you leave the Tarantulas sitting where they are, or do you move the damn things up?

Quote:
That is, essentially, the exact thing that Imperial Armour says Marines don't do.


All Imperial Armor says about Marines using Tarantulas is that they're used for static defense and Marines mostly use them for routine guard duty. Neither of which precludes their redeployment outside of immediate combat. Hell, neither even precludes a small group of supervisors for a large group of Tarantulas - and frankly, I'd expect nothing else. At minimum, there should be someone there to hit the kill switch when the Tarantulas decide your Scouts are unfriendly.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:27 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
All Imperial Armor says about Marines using Tarantulas is that they're used for static defense and Marines mostly use them for routine guard duty. Neither of which precludes their redeployment outside of immediate combat. Hell, neither even precludes a small group of supervisors for a large group of Tarantulas - and frankly, I'd expect nothing else. At minimum, there should be someone there to hit the kill switch when the Tarantulas decide your Scouts are unfriendly.


Feel free to provide any evidence that the modern, FW styled tarantulas are ever crewed in any way. As far as I know there is no such evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:36 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Quote:
I just checked with a couple of models sitting on my shelf, and the central part of the Tarantula is pretty much the same size as a Sentinel's cab. Much bigger than an infantryman.


Er...from what I recollect of Sentinel cabs, that's a relative statement if I ever heard one. Of course, I don't have a current Sentinel around to judge.


I'm sorry but what are you trying to say here, that I'm not telling the truth?

Have attached a picture of a Tarantula being held next to a Sentinel's cab.



Quote:
Quote:
Likewise, why are Rhino drivers lugging Tarantulas about in the middle of a battle?

Because the Tarantulas would be more useful elsewhere than where they currently are?


The Rhino drivers (Who are Space Marines, after all) would be much more useful driving Tactical and Devastator squads around the battlefield, instead of doing menial labour.

Quote:
Quote:
This isn't pre-battle setup you're talking about, you're suggesting Marines drag Tarantulas into Rhinos, drive up to within range of the enemy, then drag out, calibrate and set up a Tarantula battery, so that the Tarantulas can fire on the enemy.


As opposed to letting the Tarantulas sit behind the line of battle doing nothing when they could be moved closer to the line of battle where they could do more good?

Yes, that is exactly what Marines would do. They would leave the Tarantulas behind because they are large, static sentry guns.
If they want guns brought somewhere, then they'd use Devastator Squads, or tanks. They wouldn't slowly drag automated sentry guns up to the battle line whilst under fire from the enemy.

Quote:
Marines do what Marines need to do to win. And I can think of several circumstances where moving Tarantulas would be a good idea. Especially in siege warfare - what if you capture enemy trenches and want to hold them? Do you leave the Tarantulas sitting where they are, or do you move the damn things up?

You move them up - after the battle.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:00 pm 
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Quote:
I'm sorry but what are you trying to say here, that I'm not telling the truth?


No. If I were going to do that I'd have done so. Think back to that time you said IA 1 said things it didn't (that shouldn't be hard, it was today), or the various occasions where you've intentionally ignored bits of my posts in order to attack points those bits explained.

I was trying to say that Sentinel cabs weren't that much bigger than infantrymen. Which, IIRC, they're not. They're basically a shell around a (crowded looking) infantryman. About double the profile size, IIRC.

Quote:
The Rhino drivers (Who are Space Marines, after all) would be much more useful driving Tactical and Devastator squads around the battlefield, instead of doing menial labour.


Which is why you assign the Tarantulas Rhinos at the beginning of the battle, if they're needed.

Quote:
Yes, that is exactly what Marines would do. They would leave the Tarantulas behind because they are large, static sentry guns.
If they want guns brought somewhere, then they'd use Devastator Squads, or tanks. They wouldn't slowly drag automated sentry guns up to the battle line whilst under fire from the enemy.


Who said anything about under fire? Maybe you move the guns to where the enemy is going to be. Or maybe you have a force in place already, and just want more support for them.

And even if that were the case, you're assuming they have the resources to do it the right way. What if they don't have Devastators with them, or not enough Devastators? What if their tanks are destroyed, or they don't have any? What if the Tarantulas need to be moved in order to allow those forces to go somewhere else?

Quote:
You move them up - after the battle.


Ah, right. After the enemy counter-attack has recaptured the trenches/your men have had to leave the trenches to pursue the attack further, leaving the Tarantulas vulnerable while in transit.

Sometimes waiting is a bad idea.

Quote:
IMG


Clean your nails. :P (Also, thank you for the reference).

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