- I have the Juggers ridden by Marines
- I believe ones ridden by Daemons are Bloodcrushers

Did you have stats for yours done up as yet? As a playtest on either list will help see these playtested, there is no reason why we cannot share in the results of testing these units.

The seekers (at present) are summonable in the EC so interested in what stats you came up with for this list.

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If one profile could be agreed regardless of whether the rider was a daemon or marine that would be best IMO, there's not enough difference on this scale between the two to warrant two profiles. It would mean dropping the 6+ FF though as Bloodcrushers have no shooting, but this was negligible anyway.

Good to hear the Net-EA army book is coming on Chroma! Keep up the good work as it would be a great thing for players new and old and for publicising our efforts around the wider GW community

That raises the question of whether, at the EPIC level, a Soulgrinder is sufficiently different from a "base" Defiler to warrant its own stats... moreso than just adding one of the various Chaos characters to a Defiler that is.

Look at the Slaughterfiend. The Soulgrinder could take on a similar profile without the weapons. Depending on what you want to do with them, they should come in as cheaper if they have no shots and a +2A MW.

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I have not read the Daemon book however if Soulgrinders are also characters, this would present an interesting opportunity for a 'mechanical' character that has 20cm MV, Infiltrate etc. to lead a host.

Now that is something that is far cooler than the already prevalent Daemon Prince.

I was making a Soulgrinder up for no other purpose than to make one (like Onyx has). To use it in a list however would be very satisfying.

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You're thinking in the wrong direction with the Soulgrinder Frogbear - it's actually a very close match for the Defiler, slightly more, slightly weaker close combat attacks and slightly better armour. Shooting-wise it can have a flamery weapon and a blastey weapon. It's not a character.

The original download link for the list seems to be dead and my saved copy's on a packed away hard drive somewhere so I can't see what you stated it as, but I think it deserves it's own profile as it's an important unit for the army. Even if it were just to be a differently named Defiler clone it would need a profile as you can't have a Defiler in a Daemons of Chaos army and people know the two as separate units, whereas people are more likely to use the same 'Juggers' regardless of which riders they have.

I've reattached v1.3 to the first post of the thread.

Ah, I see.

I was looking through the list and could not find it so decided to let the imagination run wild

- So would it fall under the 'Followers of Chaos' or under Daemon Engines?
- Are they individuals or do they exist in packs?

That brings up another point: Are Daemon Engines correct to be in the list? I don't mind either way yet I would like to play the list in its most 'fluffy' aspect.

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A Defiler is a machine possessed by a Daemon.
A Soulgrinder is a Daemon with machine aspects.

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*laugh* I think we're aware of that... but are their abilities distinct enough to warrant different stats at the EPIC scale?

Both crush and shoot in a mean and hurtful fashion. >:D

I don't have issue with the units having different stats.

Soulgrinders in general are a lot shorter ranged and more choppy, right?

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Compared to the Defilfer the Soulgrinder has +1 Armour Value on the front and sides. It also has +1 Attacks.
Standard wepon is equivalent to 3 Stormbolters and the Maw is an Inferno Cannon without the extra range.
Optional shooting profiles for the Maw is a heavy Bolter ranged Battle Cannon and a Bolter ranged Demolisher shot without the blast template buthigher damage probability after armour penetration. Both without the extra penetration ability Ordnance gives. If takingoneor moreof the upgrades to the Maw the Soulgrinder can choose which shooting attack to use every shooting phase.

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Thabks BL! I'd say that's definitely different enough to justify it's own profile. It should have weapons to match and which have at most 30cm range, rather than the battlecannon range on a Defiler.

Some time ago i porposed stats for the Maw Cannon. Can't remember what they where but currentrly i would lean towards:
30cm AP3+/AT4+ Ignore Cover
This would incorporate all three weapons profiles in one.

How about this?

Chaos Soul Grinder
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 20cm 4+ 3+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Mawcannon 30cm AP3+/AT4+ Ignore Cover
Harvester (15cm) Small Arms Extra Attack (+1)
Bladed Claws (base contact) Macro-weapon, Extra Attack (+1)

Notes: Fearless, Infiltrators, Invulnerable Save, Walker, Teleport.

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SG - Shorter range / more choppy DEF - Ranged / more armour

Definetly different stats and adds more tactical scope and army list flexibility. BOSH!!